Taimandred Lives! (no spoiler space, warning warning)

[Aaron]

Though his component parts may have died, and though, dead OR alive, they disproved his existence utterly, he yet lives on!

No no, hear me out. And Chucky, your outrage at Taimandretards is wholly to blame for this final plea to reason. Well, ok not “wholly” because one is largely to blame for one’s actions no matter what others do. So you are 10% to blame or whatever the currently accepted blame figure is. But still, you are as much to blame as you POSSIBLY can be, and that’s all that matters! Muahahahahah!
By the way I left out the spoiler space because I thought it fucked up my opening remarks, and also it’s hard enough to get people to read something on this topic without making them scroll down, eh?

So in the recent Taimandretard discussion, two things were posited, from opposing sides, which I really think are not true. I mean that in a factual sense but I’ll present my positions on them as opinions tentatively for politeness.

Both, by the way, are rendered incorrect by the same piece of evidence, which is why I felt this was enough of an “epiphany” to give this tired old subject one more reboot.

The two suppositions were thus:
1. From me, I just said in another thread that perhaps my sequential reading of the first 6 books or so without external input made the “Taimandred” feeling (or what have you) stronger in me than it normally would have been.

2. From Chucky, he suggested that—at BEST—RJ saw us Taimandretards latching on to his possibly-unintended similarities between Taim and Demandred, and in later books (obviously must be in later books) strengthened the similarities just for S’s and G’s. But I think Chucky takes a dim view of that possibility.

Well, I was just doing some more thinking (with Les Wynin) about this again today, and I realized that most of the evidence is from ONE book! Apologies if this has been discussed to death and countered before, but all you need to see massive connections between Taim and Demandred is ONE book, IIRC. Lord of Chaos, that would be, where Demandred (twice?) goes to see the Dark One. Right?

I’ll re-list the evidence from that book (and one bit of it connects to or is IN future books where the evidence can be said to be TIED to this book), but first let me state for the record that this is what disproves both 1 and 2 above. Because if Taimandred can be theorized strongly from just ONE book, it doesn’t matter that I wasn’t on this NG before book 6. Because book 6 did it all, and I wouldn’t have discussed book 6 on the NG until I finished it, as is the habit of those who hate spoilers.

Similarly Chucky’s point wouldn’t be valid anymore because RJ can’t have heard/read Taimandred theories in-the-middle of writing book 6 and decided to end it with some heavy-handed red herrings! We hadn’t run into Demandred before this point. Why would be theorizing him as Taim before book 6? We wouldn’t. Well except as one of many truly minor fancies.

Right so far?

Let’s reach another point of agreement: RJ is a fairly straightforward writer. Very little mystery in the WOT books. And I’m being generous there. I’d say he’s a REALLY fucking straightforward writer. “Who Killed Asmodean” was his greatest mystery and he totally fucked that one up/it doesn’t count because he didn’t even give the necessary clues to solve it. Well, “Where is Graendal Established” was another one but again he really gave no evidence, IIRC, so if that was a mystery he sucked at it.

Can we all agree on that critique of RJ’s style in WOT?

On account of Chucky’s recent post I want to address two things here before I really get started…I’d put them with the appropriate points below but that would affect the flow.

The objection that having Demandred replace Taim doesn’t work because Taim already existed before Demandred was free doesn’t really make a damn difference given channeling and Demandred’s talent and all that. Let’s not forget, Taim was somehow freed from Aes Sedai clutches by his “followers”, who are Not Featured in This Film otherwise. Maybe they had help? Maybe they had the help of Demandred who was going to take Taim’s place?

And Graendal having Sharan captives, sure that’s an interesting case that it was a gift from Demandred. I can’t recall all the statements made around that point, whether he made comment about that or not, or if it was just Sammael in that (those?) scenes…. But it doesn’t matter if that was a later book after Taimandred became distasteful to RJ. If that was the case, I mean. I know you say it is not.

Graendal acquired many slaves on her own, she could have acquired those on her own as well.

I will agree, however, that the role of Demandred in Shara was awesome and perfect for him, yes. It just makes the “have I not done well” moment really stupid since we didn’t see any of it.

So from recollection alone, let’s briefly review what RJ did to foster and then bolster the Taimandred theory *in book 6* and in possibly later events that stem directly from book 6.

Numbered list because making a topic like this isn’t dickish enough for me:
1. Demandred is introduced to us with a physical description similar to Taim, a Saldean (who hasn’t really been introduced to us either but he will be in this book)
2. Demandred takes on the task of letting the “Lord of Chaos rule” from the DO
3. Taim comes to the Black Tower and takes over as The Dragon Reborn’s second, just as Demandred was in the Age of Legends
4. Lews Therin rages about Demandred around Taim a bit
5. Assassination attempt(s?) on Rand, one of which is stopped by Taim to gain trust, but probably also initiated by Taim as are others future books
6. Renegade Ashaman are trained (by Taim as we later find out) and start shit and attack Rand (maybe later book but obviously set up starting here because Taim’s in charge now)
7. Bristling from Taim to Rand just as Demandred would do toward Lews Therin
8. Taim is very strong, close to Rand, just as Demandred would be
9. And then, and THEN, at the end of THIS very book, Demandred to DO: “Have I not done well?”

Now I ask you, does that not imply very fucking strongly that we’ve seen something that Demandred has done? What a stupid, stupid scene if nothing in that entire book was from Demandred. Right? RIGHT????

And what do we find he was supposedly (ok, canonically, actually…damnit) up to? Well, taking over Shara, training them, turning them via whatever means to serve the DO. And we saw fuck-all about Shara in book 6, or any other for that matter.

So. With all I have laid out here, you still think RJ didn’t intend Taim to be Demandred? Well, that’s your choice. But don’t pretend it was just him leading us on—he’s not that clever or mysterious, and it was nearly all in one book. At best it was a huge coincidence with terrible writing (per the paragraph after point 9 above) in an attempt to be cool. But, you know, I’d like to give him more credit than that.

I think it’s better if he got pissed off and changed his mind on this one after so many jumped on it. And maybe it wasn’t just the Taimandretards, but the others like Chucky who were saying “yeah he’s laying it on thick but nah”, so he said “well, I made that too easy so let me switch it”. Or whatever.
Just had to get all that out there in one post. I’m sure if a collective of all Taimandred posts were made, there’s nothing new here. But sometimes until an argument is all together, it doesn’t work for unbelievers.

-Aaron

P.S. I see that Chucky linked a great debunking thread I haven’t had the chance to read. I will read it. I wasn’t about to let all this go to waste, on the chance that it was all debunked in that thread.

P.P.S. The main objection to Taimandretards is that we insult TaimTaimtards who were right all along, because we have to address what they were thinking at the time. No, we do not insult them. You were thinking any number of things (too obvious, doesn’t work for me, not interesting), any of which is an acceptable reason for me to say: you were right in the end. It doesn’t say ANYTHING about your processes or legitimacy that ***I*** think he had this plan and changed it. YUO CAN’T KNOE!!!!!
*soothes*


Yes you totally won, congratulations, amazing, *totally-not-slow-clap*.
Wait did you figure out what Demandred WAS doing? Or did you just deny one theory and end up correct in your denial? Think about that. How many theories have each of us denied and been correct about that denial, in the course of this series?

Let’s have the non-competitive Chucky since I’m being so nice =D

[Chucky @ Work]

Post by Aaron
Though his component parts may have died, and though, dead
OR alive, they disproved his existence utterly, he yet lives on!

Oh yeesh.

Post by Aaron
No no, hear me out. And Chucky, your outrage at Taimandretards
is wholly to blame for this final plea to reason.

No kidding.

Post by Aaron
Well, ok not “wholly” because one is largely to blame for one’s
actions no matter what others do. So you are 10% to blame or
whatever the currently accepted blame figure is. But still, you
are as much to blame as you POSSIBLY can be, and that’s
all that matters! Muahahahahah!

Uh huh.

Post by Aaron
By the way I left out the spoiler space because I thought it
fucked up my opening remarks, and also it’s hard enough
to get people to read something on this topic without making
them scroll down, eh?

I know I had to force myself.

Post by Aaron
So in the recent Taimandretard discussion, two things were
posited, from opposing sides, which I really think are not true.
I mean that in a factual sense but I’ll present my positions on
them as opinions tentatively for politeness.

*sigh* Good.

Post by Aaron
Both, by the way, are rendered incorrect by the same piece
of evidence, which is why I felt this was enough of an
“epiphany” to give this tired old subject one more reboot.

I can tell you already, you were mistaken. And on finishing the post
and coming back to revisit, I concur with my original assessment. This
wasn't ground-breaking to me, sorry.

You need to just admit that you are butthurt about being proved wrong,
and then we will stop.

Post by Aaron
1. From me, I just said in another thread that perhaps my
sequential reading of the first 6 books or so without external
input made the “Taimandred” feeling (or what have you)
stronger in me than it normally would have been.

Uh huh.

Post by Aaron
2. From Chucky, he suggested that—at BEST—RJ saw us
Taimandretards latching on to his possibly-unintended
similarities between Taim and Demandred, and in later books
(obviously must be in later books) strengthened the similarities
just for S’s and G’s. But I think Chucky takes a dim view of
that possibility.

Yeah, not sure what "at best" means here but I think this is a pretty
slim chance and don't consider it all that compelling.

Post by Aaron
Well, I was just doing some more thinking (with Les Wynin)
about this again today, and I realized that most of the
evidence is from ONE book! Apologies if this has been
discussed to death and countered before, but all you need
to see massive connections between Taim and Demandred
is ONE book, IIRC. Lord of Chaos, that would be, where
Demandred (twice?) goes to see the Dark One. Right?

That's the one with the meetings with the Dark One, yes.

Post by Aaron
I’ll re-list the evidence from that book (and one bit of it
connects to or is IN future books where the evidence can
be said to be TIED to this book), but first let me state for
the record that this is what disproves both 1 and 2 above.
Because if Taimandred can be theorized strongly from
just ONE book, it doesn’t matter that I wasn’t on this
NG before book 6. Because book 6 did it all, and I
wouldn’t have discussed book 6 on the NG until I finished
it, as is the habit of those who hate spoilers.

Uh okay. I'm not sure what this would mean, but I don't think all the
Taimandred evidence came from that one book. It has been building up
since the introduction of Mazrim Taim as a character, after Rand
declared the amnesty and Taim turned himself in. And Bashere wanted to
kill him. Which may have been the same book, but I think there was
earlier stuff too.

Did you read the History chapter I found for you? I guess not yet.
Well, you should check it out.

Sure, before then there wasn't much about *Demandred*. But we knew
Demandred was a Forsaken and so when Taim turned up, there was already
debate about whether he was a Forsaken in disguise. Or at least a
Darkfriend. It seemed the best explanation for his "trick" to survive
the taint for so long, which he alluded to and said he could teach to
others, but never really explained.

But sure, I guess there might have been *more* debate after Demandred
took a more active role. Don't know. Don't think it matters as much as
you (bafflingly, amusingly) seem to.

Post by Aaron
Similarly Chucky’s point wouldn’t be valid anymore because
RJ can’t have heard/read Taimandred theories in-the-middle
of writing book 6 and decided to end it with some heavy-handed
red herrings! We hadn’t run into Demandred before this point.
Why would be theorizing him as Taim before book 6? We
wouldn’t. Well except as one of many truly minor fancies.

Uh.

Post by Aaron
Right so far?

Bored. Does that count?

Post by Aaron
Let’s reach another point of agreement: RJ is a fairly
straightforward writer. Very little mystery in the WOT books.
And I’m being generous there. I’d say he’s a REALLY
fucking straightforward writer. “Who Killed Asmodean”
was his greatest mystery and he totally fucked that one
up/it doesn’t count because he didn’t even give the
necessary clues to solve it. Well, “Where is Graendal
Established” was another one but again he really
gave no evidence, IIRC, so if that was a mystery he
sucked at it.

If you say so.

Post by Aaron
Can we all agree on that critique of RJ’s style in WOT?

Pretty straightforward, sometimes clumsy. That's the best I can do for
you there.

Post by Aaron
On account of Chucky’s recent post I want to
address two things here before I really get started…
I’d put them with the appropriate points below but
that would affect the flow.
The objection that having Demandred replace Taim
doesn’t work because Taim already existed before
Demandred was free doesn’t really make a damn
difference given channeling and Demandred’s talent
and all that.

I can already assume you have completely misunderstood my point there.

Post by Aaron
Let’s not forget, Taim was somehow freed from Aes
Sedai clutches by his “followers”, who are Not
Featured in This Film otherwise. Maybe they had
help? Maybe they had the help of Demandred who
was going to take Taim’s place?

Yes ... I don't even know *what* this objection is meant to be, aside
from funny.

My point was actually this:

Part of the Taimandred Theory (before the Mask of Mirrors became more
common knowledge) was that Taim and Demandred looked the same - one
had a "hooked" nose, the other had a "hawklike" nose.

Now, the TaimTAIMtards cited this as a coincidence, based on Jordan's
limited ability to come up with descriptive terms for noses -
particularly Saldaean noses. And the thing is, whether you're a
Taimandretard or a TaimTAIMtard, this can *only be* a coincidence.
Because Taim did exist, and he looked the way he did, and after the
switcheroo-that-actually-never-happened, Taim still looked the same.
So he was either still Taim, or he was Demandred in disguise, and the
fact that Demandred sorta-kinda looked like him before donning the
disguise has no relevance at all. It might have made the Mask of
Mirrors (or any other disguise) easier to achieve, but that's about
it.

Indeed, for Demandred to *impersonate* Taim, the coincidence of their
appearances is staggering to the point of spoiling the whole concept.
And plays ludicrously into the fact that Taim was a perfect ringer, in
terms of social standing and rank and power, for Demandred even before
he started to move into M'Hael territory. It would be stupid if Taim
*did* turn out to be Demandred.

That was my point. You savvy?

Post by Aaron
And Graendal having Sharan captives, sure that’s an
interesting case that it was a gift from Demandred.

The "gift from Demandred" thing was just supposition.

The "Graendal having Sharan captives" thing is the only time prior to
the final book when we see and hear anything solid about Shara and
Sharans at all, which was the main reason I mentioned it.

Post by Aaron
I can’t recall all the statements made around that point,
whether he made comment about that or not, or if it was
just Sammael in that (those?) scenes…. But it doesn’t
matter if that was a later book after Taimandred
became distasteful to RJ. If that was the case, I mean.
I know you say it is not.

Ahh, so Jordan put in a bunch of quiet ground-work to his Winter's
Heart turnaround, did he? Your theorising about the author's intent
grows steadily more intricate.

Post by Aaron
Graendal acquired many slaves on her own, she
could have acquired those on her own as well.

Absolutely. The implication, however, was that these were Sharan
*royalty* and having them in her collection meant that Shara had been
conquered or completely destabilised in the ensuing power vacuum.
Letting the Lord of Chaos rule, in fact.

Oh but it only happened after Lord of Chaos, so it doesn't count?
Whatever.

Post by Aaron
I will agree, however, that the role of Demandred
in Shara was awesome and perfect for him, yes.
It just makes the “have I not done well” moment
really stupid since we didn’t see any of it.

Yet. Didn't see any of it yet.

And it's fairly dumb if Demandred was masquerading as Taim too, by the
same logic. We didn't see much, just that Taim was collecting
sycophants, and there had been some freakouts. Big whoop. Most of what
he was doing was *still* ostensibly for Rand's benefit by that stage.
Why exactly was the Dark One *laughing*?

Post by Aaron
So from recollection alone, let’s briefly review what
RJ did to foster and then bolster the Taimandred
theory *in book 6* and in possibly later events that
stem directly from book 6.
Numbered list because making a topic like this isn’t
1. Demandred is introduced to us with a physical description similar
to Taim, a Saldean (who hasn’t really been introduced to us either but
he will be in this book)

Pretty sure Taim already was around. And as I said, this point was
useless anyway because their physical appearances made no difference
to either theory.

Post by Aaron
2. Demandred takes on the task of letting the
“Lord of Chaos rule” from the DO

Not seeing this as a point bolstering anything.

Post by Aaron
3. Taim comes to the Black Tower and takes over as
The Dragon Reborn’s second, just as Demandred was in
the Age of Legends

Point against Taimandred as far as I've ever been concerned.

Post by Aaron
4. Lews Therin rages about Demandred around Taim a bit

No, he rages about Demandred and Sammael sometimes, and raves in
general a bit, and raves even-handedly around any Asha'man and any
large group of Aes Sedai. The "about Demandred, around Taim" part was
long since demolished as absolute bullshit, read the History for more
details.

Post by Aaron
5. Assassination attempt(s?) on Rand, one of which
is stopped by Taim to gain trust, but probably also
initiated by Taim as are others future books

Again not seeing this as a bolstering Taimandred thing.

Post by Aaron
6. Renegade Ashaman are trained (by Taim as
we later find out) and start shit and attack Rand (maybe
later book but obviously set up starting here because
Taim’s in charge now)

Again, not seeing a Demandred connection, except of course if you have
already assumed Taim is Demandred in disguise, then these will further
convince you. If you think Taim is Taim, however, these points do
nothing but provide interesting plot developments.

Post by Aaron
7. Bristling from Taim to Rand just as Demandred
would do toward Lews Therin

Yes. Point against Taimandred.

Post by Aaron
8. Taim is very strong, close to Rand, just as
Demandred would be

Yes, Taim's power and taint-withstanding ability and Age of Legends
knowledge led people to theorise about his Forsaken / Darkfriend
status from the start.

Post by Aaron
9. And then, and THEN, at the end of THIS
very book, Demandred to DO: “Have I not done well?”

Yes he does.

Post by Aaron
Now I ask you, does that not imply very fucking
strongly that we’ve seen something that Demandred
has done?

No.

Post by Aaron
What a stupid, stupid scene if nothing in that
entire book was from Demandred. Right? RIGHT????

I liked it.

Post by Aaron
And what do we find he was supposedly (ok, canonically,
actually…damnit) up to? Well, taking over Shara,
training them, turning them via whatever means to
serve the DO. And we saw fuck-all about Shara in
book 6, or any other for that matter.

Yes. Awesome.

Post by Aaron
So. With all I have laid out here, you still think RJ didn’t
intend Taim to be Demandred?

Yes. Or, to be more accurate, "pretty much but I don't really care".

Post by Aaron
Well, that’s your choice. But don’t pretend it was just
him leading us on—he’s not that clever or mysterious,
and it was nearly all in one book.

I don't really think he was leading us on at all. I never thought Taim
was Demandred so how the fuck did I manage to think that? Either I put
together the evidence from the books and made a decision based on my
feel for the story, or I just guessed the opposite out of obtuse
reject-the-mainstream disagreeableness, and happened to be right.

And you're basically saying I did the latter - you're *precisely*
saying the latter, further on down here - so screw you.

Post by Aaron
At best it was a huge coincidence with terrible writing
(per the paragraph after point 9 above) in an attempt
to be cool. But, you know, I’d like to give him more
credit than that.

And like I said, if you want to get into authorial intent and guess
about what Jordan might have been trying to do, that was my best
guess. Frankly I prefer to just steer clear of it because there's no
way out of it without coming off looking like an arrogant tool.

Post by Aaron
I think it’s better if he got pissed off and changed his mind
on this one after so many jumped on it.

Of *COURSE* you do!

Post by Aaron
And maybe it wasn’t just the Taimandretards, but the
others like Chucky who were saying “yeah he’s laying
it on thick but nah”, so he said “well, I made that too
easy so let me switch it”. Or whatever.

Whatever indeed.

Post by Aaron
Just had to get all that out there in one post. I’m sure if a
collective of all Taimandred posts were made, there’s
nothing new here.

History. But still, nicely done and I do appreciate the effort even
though I find the subject matter ... enh, fucking retarded. Have to
say.

Post by Aaron
But sometimes until an argument is all together, it
doesn’t work for unbelievers.

Indeed.

Post by Aaron
P.S. I see that Chucky linked a great debunking thread
I haven’t had the chance to read. I will read it.

Good. This was all sort of redundant until you do, but I won't say
"read the post, all the answers are in there", because it *is*
valuable to revisit and re-summarise, never doubt it.

I will, however, say that a lot of the clarification and actual quotes
and a lot of other useful stuff is there. So it is worth reading lest
we waste *too* much time.

Post by Aaron
I wasn’t about to let all this go to waste, on the
chance that it was all debunked in that thread.

Heh, indeed.

Post by Aaron
P.P.S. The main objection to Taimandretards is that we
insult TaimTaimtards who were right all along, because we
have to address what they were thinking at the time. No,
we do not insult them. You were thinking any number of
things (too obvious, doesn’t work for me, not interesting),
any of which is an acceptable reason for me to say: you
were right in the end.

That's not good enough. We were right all along, because we had these
counter-theories all along. And it *is* insulting, because instead of
just saying "I was wrong about this one, and you were right, well
played and Ima shut the fuck up now before I make too much of a
butthurt fanboy of myself", you've said *anything and everything but*,
and you *still haven't stopped even though almost everyone else
finally has*.

Post by Aaron
It doesn’t say ANYTHING about your processes or legitimacy
that ***I*** think he had this plan and changed it. YUO
CAN’T KNOE!!!!!
*soothes*

You soothe like you theorise: lousy.

Post by Aaron
Wait did you figure out what Demandred WAS doing? Or
did you just deny one theory and end up correct in your
denial?

*Exactly* what I just said and *exactly* why your bitching is
offensive.

We didn't need to answer a specific question in order to disagree with
this theory. Any more than we had to account for the whereabouts and
actions of *every other character who Taim wasn't*, in order to be
right.

All we had to maintain was that Taim was Taim. And, since the
Taimandretards insisted he was Demandred, we were also obliged to
maintain that Demandred was Demandred. But that's not really relevant.

Post by Aaron
Think about that.

Already did, and tried to explain to you, but you missed it every
time. This is *exactly* why Persistent Taimandretards are offensive.

Post by Aaron
How many theories have each of us denied and
been correct about that denial, in the course of this series?

Don't know. All I really remember is this one, because you guys were
so panty-twisted about it. Oh wait, why am I using past-tense there?
Bahahahaha.

Post by Aaron
Let’s have the non-competitive Chucky since I’m being so nice =D

*paste*

You need to just admit that you are butthurt about being proved wrong,
and then we will stop.



***@w

[Aaron]

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
Though his component parts may have died, and though, dead
OR alive, they disproved his existence utterly, he yet lives on!

Oh yeesh.

I thought that was pretty good! This must be a case where you WERE letting what else I wrote affect a particular response. Damnit Jim!

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
By the way I left out the spoiler space because I thought it
fucked up my opening remarks, and also it’s hard enough
to get people to read something on this topic without making
them scroll down, eh?

I know I had to force myself.

Thanks for doing so. Really.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
Both, by the way, are rendered incorrect by the same piece
of evidence, which is why I felt this was enough of an
“epiphany” to give this tired old subject one more reboot.

I can tell you already, you were mistaken. And on finishing the post
and coming back to revisit, I concur with my original assessment. This
wasn't ground-breaking to me, sorry.

No big deal. It kinda was, for me. Or the whole experience was. I gained so much XP!

Post by Chucky @ Work
You need to just admit that you are butthurt about being proved wrong,
and then we will stop.

Yes, yes I do.

*RJ-like suspense*

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
2. From Chucky, he suggested that—at BEST—RJ saw us
Taimandretards latching on to his possibly-unintended
similarities between Taim and Demandred, and in later books
(obviously must be in later books) strengthened the similarities
just for S’s and G’s. But I think Chucky takes a dim view of
that possibility.

Yeah, not sure what "at best" means here but I think this is a pretty
slim chance and don't consider it all that compelling.

That's what "at best" means. Doesn't, uhh, it usually mean that?

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
I’ll re-list the evidence from that book (and one bit of it
connects to or is IN future books where the evidence can
be said to be TIED to this book), but first let me state for
the record that this is what disproves both 1 and 2 above.
Because if Taimandred can be theorized strongly from
just ONE book, it doesn’t matter that I wasn’t on this
NG before book 6. Because book 6 did it all, and I
wouldn’t have discussed book 6 on the NG until I finished
it, as is the habit of those who hate spoilers.

Uh okay. I'm not sure what this would mean, but I don't think all the
Taimandred evidence came from that one book. It has been building up
since the introduction of Mazrim Taim as a character, after Rand
declared the amnesty and Taim turned himself in. And Bashere wanted to
kill him. Which may have been the same book, but I think there was
earlier stuff too.

Good point. See for me, I was TaimTaim until book 6, so I could have phrased this post better. Ah well.

Post by Chucky @ Work
Did you read the History chapter I found for you? I guess not yet.
Well, you should check it out.
Sure, before then there wasn't much about *Demandred*. But we knew
Demandred was a Forsaken and so when Taim turned up, there was already
debate about whether he was a Forsaken in disguise. Or at least a
Darkfriend. It seemed the best explanation for his "trick" to survive
the taint for so long, which he alluded to and said he could teach to
others, but never really explained.

Right.

Post by Chucky @ Work
But sure, I guess there might have been *more* debate after Demandred
took a more active role. Don't know. Don't think it matters as much as
you (bafflingly, amusingly) seem to.

Because for me it does.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
Right so far?

Bored. Does that count?

Usually you seem to be bored when I'm right, so yes.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
Can we all agree on that critique of RJ’s style in WOT?

Pretty straightforward, sometimes clumsy. That's the best I can do for
you there.

n0bMouse: That's exactly my point! Exactly!

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
Let’s not forget, Taim was somehow freed from Aes
Sedai clutches by his “followers”, who are Not
Featured in This Film otherwise. Maybe they had
help? Maybe they had the help of Demandred who
was going to take Taim’s place?

Yes ... I don't even know *what* this objection is meant to be, aside
from funny.

Hunh. I thought I said the point. Maybe Demandred freed him so he could replace him. Glad you thought it was funny though. Thanks. Fuck did you even think it was funny, or was this all bitter spite throughout? I tried to lighten this shit up but you really were butthurt over the "insult" aspect of Taimandred Theory so I guess you didn't allow it.

Post by Chucky @ Work
Part of the Taimandred Theory (before the Mask of Mirrors became more
common knowledge) was that Taim and Demandred looked the same - one
had a "hooked" nose, the other had a "hawklike" nose.
Now, the TaimTAIMtards cited this as a coincidence, based on Jordan's
limited ability to come up with descriptive terms for noses -
particularly Saldaean noses. And the thing is, whether you're a
Taimandretard or a TaimTAIMtard, this can *only be* a coincidence.
Because Taim did exist, and he looked the way he did, and after the
switcheroo-that-actually-never-happened, Taim still looked the same.
So he was either still Taim, or he was Demandred in disguise, and the
fact that Demandred sorta-kinda looked like him before donning the
disguise has no relevance at all. It might have made the Mask of
Mirrors (or any other disguise) easier to achieve, but that's about
it.
Indeed, for Demandred to *impersonate* Taim, the coincidence of their
appearances is staggering to the point of spoiling the whole concept.
And plays ludicrously into the fact that Taim was a perfect ringer, in
terms of social standing and rank and power, for Demandred even before
he started to move into M'Hael territory. It would be stupid if Taim
*did* turn out to be Demandred.
That was my point. You savvy?

It is in the books that a Mask of Mirrors works best when it's only minor changes you have to make. 99% sure and if not, that still TOTALLY makes sense because then even touch will probably not reveal anything, if you can keep it a fleeting touch.

Post by Chucky @ Work
Ahh, so Jordan put in a bunch of quiet ground-work to his Winter's
Heart turnaround, did he? Your theorising about the author's intent
grows steadily more intricate.

Yes, he's an evil dude, apparently, according to my mental image.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
I will agree, however, that the role of Demandred
in Shara was awesome and perfect for him, yes.
It just makes the “have I not done well” moment
really stupid since we didn’t see any of it.

Yet. Didn't see any of it yet.
And it's fairly dumb if Demandred was masquerading as Taim too, by the
same logic. We didn't see much, just that Taim was collecting
sycophants, and there had been some freakouts. Big whoop. Most of what
he was doing was *still* ostensibly for Rand's benefit by that stage.
Why exactly was the Dark One *laughing*?

It's dumb by the same logic so either both are dumb or both are not. I'm happy either way. I'm just reducing the counter to Taimandred, leveling the playing field on this point if you will. It's not any MORE impressive to the DO, a month or two of diddling in Shara, than what Taim is setting up for the Black Tower.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
Numbered list because making a topic like this isn’t
1. Demandred is introduced to us with a physical description similar
to Taim, a Saldean (who hasn’t really been introduced to us either but
he will be in this book)

Pretty sure Taim already was around. And as I said, this point was
useless anyway because their physical appearances made no difference
to either theory.

Yes I totally fucked that up.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
2. Demandred takes on the task of letting the
“Lord of Chaos rule” from the DO

Not seeing this as a point bolstering anything.

Must be up to SOMETHING. Taim is certainly creating chaos.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
3. Taim comes to the Black Tower and takes over as
The Dragon Reborn’s second, just as Demandred was in
the Age of Legends

Point against Taimandred as far as I've ever been concerned.

Hope now you see the other way of looking at this.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
4. Lews Therin rages about Demandred around Taim a bit

No, he rages about Demandred and Sammael sometimes, and raves in
general a bit, and raves even-handedly around any Asha'man and any
large group of Aes Sedai. The "about Demandred, around Taim" part was
long since demolished as absolute bullshit, read the History for more
details.

Yes I do need to look into that. Man it really sticks out in my mind that way. Maybe just once.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
5. Assassination attempt(s?) on Rand, one of which
is stopped by Taim to gain trust, but probably also
initiated by Taim as are others future books

Again not seeing this as a bolstering Taimandred thing.

This is just a supporting point.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
6. Renegade Ashaman are trained (by Taim as
we later find out) and start shit and attack Rand (maybe
later book but obviously set up starting here because
Taim’s in charge now)

Again, not seeing a Demandred connection, except of course if you have
already assumed Taim is Demandred in disguise, then these will further
convince you. If you think Taim is Taim, however, these points do
nothing but provide interesting plot developments.

Well, exactly.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
7. Bristling from Taim to Rand just as Demandred
would do toward Lews Therin

Yes. Point against Taimandred.

Absolutely not! Wow. *just as* Demandred would do to Lews Therin. *just as* is a point against now?

This makes it seem like you were TaimTaim because you really, REALLY didn't want Taimandred.

Oh, you didn't. I forgot!

So, your comment about "if you want Taim to be Demandred" can be reversed on you, can't it? I could say "these don't work for you because you really WANT Taim to be Taim."

If we're being fair and shit.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
9. And then, and THEN, at the end of THIS
very book, Demandred to DO: “Have I not done well?”

Yes he does.

Post by Aaron
Now I ask you, does that not imply very fucking
strongly that we’ve seen something that Demandred
has done?

No.

Meh. Yes.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
What a stupid, stupid scene if nothing in that
entire book was from Demandred. Right? RIGHT????

I liked it.

I did too, at the same time I liked it because I thought we'd SEEN some of it. Now knowing it was all super-secret shit, I can analyze it and say it's cheap writing. Not bad necessarily, but just a cheap "cool thing" to throw in there that actually doesn't mean anything at the time.

Post by Chucky @ Work
You need to just admit that you are butthurt about being proved wrong,
and then we will stop.

Yes I am indeed butthurt, all the more so because this really was my baby (though not uniquely so), and I was rather proud of myself at the time.

And excited to see how Taimandred would play out. Which died in the bitter heart of Winter.

-Aaron

[Chucky @ Work]

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
Though his component parts may have died, and though, dead
OR alive, they disproved his existence utterly, he yet lives on!

Oh yeesh.

I thought that was pretty good! This must be a case where you
WERE letting what else I wrote affect a particular response.
Damnit Jim!

The very title of this thread, along with this opening, warranted a
yeesh.

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
Bored. Does that count?

Usually you seem to be bored when I'm right, so yes.

*laugh*

It must happen so often that it gets tiresome. No, wait.

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
Let’s not forget, Taim was somehow freed from Aes
Sedai clutches by his “followers”, who are Not
Featured in This Film otherwise. Maybe they had
help? Maybe they had the help of Demandred who
was going to take Taim’s place?

Yes ... I don't even know *what* this objection is meant to be, aside
from funny.

Hunh. I thought I said the point. Maybe Demandred freed him
so he could replace him. Glad you thought it was funny though.
Thanks. Fuck did you even think it was funny, or was this all
bitter spite throughout? I tried to lighten this shit up but you
really were butthurt over the "insult" aspect of Taimandred
Theory so I guess you didn't allow it.

You remember the hysterical woman with the dead husband who screamed
and howled and gnashed her teeth and dragged her husband's corpse home
and pretended to talk to it and left it sitting in the attic in a
rocking chair and pretended it was alive, in the other thread?

This is the same sort of funny.

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
Indeed, for Demandred to *impersonate* Taim, the coincidence of their
appearances is staggering to the point of spoiling the whole concept.
And plays ludicrously into the fact that Taim was a perfect ringer, in
terms of social standing and rank and power, for Demandred even before
he started to move into M'Hael territory. It would be stupid if Taim
*did* turn out to be Demandred.
That was my point. You savvy?

It is in the books that a Mask of Mirrors works best when it's only
minor changes you have to make. 99% sure and if not, that still
TOTALLY makes sense because then even touch will probably
not reveal anything, if you can keep it a fleeting touch.

True enough, but not really enough to hang the theory on, and
*certainly* not enough to refute the un-snipped portion of my remarks
I left in above. If, indeed, they *were* similar-looking at all, aside
from their noses.

Because (the flipside of the similarity issue) you still really only
have their noses described in common. If that's the only thing you
have in common with a person, it's not going to be a minor change to
make yourself look like them anyway.

Perfect case of how a theory can be completely made or destroyed by a
bad bit of descriptive writing. Seriously, their noses? That was what
you had.

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
And it's fairly dumb if Demandred was masquerading as Taim too, by the
same logic. We didn't see much, just that Taim was collecting
sycophants, and there had been some freakouts. Big whoop. Most of what
he was doing was *still* ostensibly for Rand's benefit by that stage.
Why exactly was the Dark One *laughing*?

It's not any MORE impressive to the DO, a month or two of diddling
in Shara, than what Taim is setting up for the Black Tower.

Are you fucking *high*? Demandred became the Sharan Messiah and
conquered the entire Goddamn country. Taim was converting by force and
he *still* ballsed it up!

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
2. Demandred takes on the task of letting the
“Lord of Chaos rule” from the DO

Not seeing this as a point bolstering anything.

Must be up to SOMETHING. Taim is certainly creating chaos.

He really wasn't.

Most of the chaos performed by the Black Tower were either
Dragon-sanctioned military efforts, or taint-related freakouts. There
were a couple of assassination attempts (that Demandred never would
have ordered, by the way, because *he wanted to kill Rand himself and
always did*, so there's a pretty big point against Taimandred right
there) that were easily passed off as taint-related mishaps. Chaos?
No, not really.

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
3. Taim comes to the Black Tower and takes over as
The Dragon Reborn’s second, just as Demandred was in
the Age of Legends

Point against Taimandred as far as I've ever been concerned.

Hope now you see the other way of looking at this.

Like I said, I have never had a problem *seeing* the other way. It has
been forced on me as gospel truth for years. I just reject it is all.

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
5. Assassination attempt(s?) on Rand, one of which
is stopped by Taim to gain trust, but probably also
initiated by Taim as are others future books

Again not seeing this as a bolstering Taimandred thing.

This is just a supporting point.

See, any attempt to send someone else to kill Rand couldn't have been
from Demandred. Now an attempt that he personally foiled, to gain
trust (an attempt that he never would have allowed to succeed), that I
can see as maybe being in Demandred's character. But there was only
one of these, and it makes far more sense that it's just Taim doing
his thing. I don't know.

Post by Aaron
So, your comment about "if you want Taim to be Demandred"
can be reversed on you, can't it? I could say "these don't
work for you because you really WANT Taim to be Taim."
If we're being fair and shit.

Well duh.

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
Now I ask you, does that not imply very fucking
strongly that we’ve seen something that Demandred
has done?

No.

Meh. Yes.

No. And I'm right.

*smile*

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
What a stupid, stupid scene if nothing in that
entire book was from Demandred. Right? RIGHT????

I liked it.

I did too, at the same time I liked it because I thought we'd
SEEN some of it. Now knowing it was all super-secret shit, I
can analyze it and say it's cheap writing. Not bad necessarily,
but just a cheap "cool thing" to throw in there that actually
doesn't mean anything at the time.

I liked it. Maybe I looked deeper. I certainly looked at it
differently.

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
You need to just admit that you are butthurt about being proved wrong,
and then we will stop.

Yes I am indeed butthurt, all the more so because this really was
my baby (though not uniquely so), and I was rather proud of
myself at the time.
And excited to see how Taimandred would play out. Which
died in the bitter heart of Winter.

And I feel you, man. I had similar shining ideals about Moridin,
Ishamael, Beidomon and allied awesomeness.

But I was wrong, and it was sad, but I copped to it and, ultimately, I
grew as a person.



***@w

[David DeLaney]

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
Yes I am indeed butthurt, all the more so because this really was
my baby (though not uniquely so), and I was rather proud of
myself at the time.
And excited to see how Taimandred would play out. Which
died in the bitter heart of Winter.

And I feel you, man. I had similar shining ideals about Moridin,
Ishamael, Beidomon and allied awesomeness.
But I was wrong, and it was sad, but I copped to it and, ultimately, I
grew as a person.

And I? Early on, I figured out that Tam al'Thor was ... Jain Farstrider.

Dave, a small theory but mine own

[Chucky @ Work]

Post by David DeLaney

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
Yes I am indeed butthurt, all the more so because this really was
my baby (though not uniquely so), and I was rather proud of
myself at the time.
And excited to see how Taimandred would play out. Which
died in the bitter heart of Winter.

And I feel you, man. I had similar shining ideals about Moridin,
Ishamael, Beidomon and allied awesomeness.
But I was wrong, and it was sad, but I copped to it and, ultimately, I
grew as a person.

And I? Early on, I figured out that Tam al'Thor was ... Jain Farstrider.

And Jordan totally rumbled you intentionally and brought in Noal just
to make you wrong. What a horrible cunt that man was.




***@w

Noal *and* Jordan.

[Chucky @ Work]

Post by Aaron
1. From me, I just said in another thread that perhaps my
sequential reading of the first 6 books or so without external input
made the “Taimandred” feeling (or what have you) stronger in
me than it normally would have been.

Incidentally, I should probably note that this is a questionable
stance in any case, since you're now talking about the first six books
for some reason, and they came out pre-1997.

I only started reading the newsgroups at around that stage, and only
started posting in '98 or '99. So I would imagine my reading
experience of the first six or seven books - the critical ones,
apparently, for formulation of any theories about Demandred or Taim -
was practically identical to yours. And I still came down on the side
of "Taim is Taim and Demandred is Demandred."

As for what I have described as the intellectual unfairness of
insisting I be correct in my thoughts about Demandred in order to
claim correctness on the Taimandred Theory (in order, as I have
already said, to not be right in a "fraudulent and bogus way that
doesn't count"), let me put it this way:

Boiled down, the Taimandred Theory is that Taim and Demandred are the
same person: two characters are in fact one character, doing stuff.

My stance on this was that Taim and Demandred are different people:
two characters, each doing different stuff.

It was a simple matter of maximising the number of characters who
could potentially do fun stuff. I have the same issue with most of
these "rule of conservation of characters"-based theories making one
character turn out to be another in disguise. It should never have
been described as a literary rule. It can occasionally be used to good
effect but nobody who thinks it is a sensible rule to apply to
characters or a story belongs in a discussion of creative fiction.

So, the TaimTAIMtard Theory boils down to two characters, each doing
different stuff. I did not have to correctly predict what that stuff
would be - not for Taim and *certainly* not for Demandred, who I
maintained was unconnected with Taim in any way - in order to be right
about this theory, and it *is* unfair and crappy of Taimandretards to
insist on it.

Still, I was excessive in my vitriol and I apologise. I guess my blood
was up, getting back to the newsgroup after so long. And this is an
annoying topic that I sincerely wish would just die. *Please* try to
become a Taimandred Theorist on this.





***@w

[Aaron]

On Friday, April 5, 2013 4:27:38 AM UTC-4, Mr. Hoity-toity McAsstaster wrote:

Thanks for this, I said most of what I wanted to say about the previous post you made in this thread, here and in Contro's thread, so I think I'll let this contain most of my logic.

We can use the other part of this thread, on which I'm about to work, for any more bickering and role-play of our past ranting. Or maybe I'll just soothe and move on. I haven't decided yet. Going there now. Anyway I won't add more facts there, I don't think, so let's stick to these other two for that.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
1. From me, I just said in another thread that perhaps my
sequential reading of the first 6 books or so without external input
made the “Taimandred” feeling (or what have you) stronger in
me than it normally would have been.

Incidentally, I should probably note that this is a questionable
stance in any case, since you're now talking about the first six books
for some reason, and they came out pre-1997.

Not really but we need to flesh it out for you to see that.

Post by Chucky @ Work
I only started reading the newsgroups at around that stage, and only
started posting in '98 or '99. So I would imagine my reading
experience of the first six or seven books - the critical ones,
apparently, for formulation of any theories about Demandred or Taim -
was practically identical to yours. And I still came down on the side
of "Taim is Taim and Demandred is Demandred."

You know, this is a fair point, and would have to be chalked up to our different thought processes, you being a creative writer, and other factors I'm sure.

But what I will say here is I did not theorize about Taim as I read through books 1-5, wherever he was mentioned or we saw him. It was, as I stated, ONLY book 6 that initiated this in me. Before that I was as you have always been, a TaimTaim guy.

So something changed for me with book 6 that did not with you, and I've been trying to explain it, will try more below.

Regardless of how many books you read before the NG, didn't you read them rather more spaced out than I did? Did you read them closer to when they were written? I only happened on the entire series in 2001, one year before my NG introduction. That's still going to make a difference in the well-thought-outness of my theories vs. yours. I was young and excited, in other words, instead of old and wise.

Post by Chucky @ Work
As for what I have described as the intellectual unfairness of
insisting I be correct in my thoughts about Demandred in order to
claim correctness on the Taimandred Theory (in order, as I have
already said, to not be right in a "fraudulent and bogus way that
Boiled down, the Taimandred Theory is that Taim and Demandred are the
same person: two characters are in fact one character, doing stuff.

Yeah, it struck our fancy. Especially leading up to book 6, there were a few (short-lived) Forsaken in disguise. Lanfear did it twice, once in a "leading up to" way as that fat chick, Rahvin though he wasn't in disguise I guess, Asmodean ditto about no disguise but trying to get close to the main characters. I think as the books progressed, even though initially the Forsaken who were released were out in the open, there was a developing "rash" of Forsaken trying to get close to prominent characters in the books. Several trying to get close to Rand.

So this just fell into place for Taimandredites of all sorts, I think.

And I apologize if I keep phrasing the above differently, if there are any contradictions. I'm still feeling this out as I go along. The psychoanalytical part of it, I mean.

For me, it didn't fall into place until book 6 (obviously as I said), when Demandred did show up and we got to see him and receive the strong impression he was Up To Something.

Post by Chucky @ Work
two characters, each doing different stuff.

Kudos.

Post by Chucky @ Work
It was a simple matter of maximising the number of characters who
could potentially do fun stuff. I have the same issue with most of
these "rule of conservation of characters"-based theories making one
character turn out to be another in disguise. It should never have
been described as a literary rule. It can occasionally be used to good
effect but nobody who thinks it is a sensible rule to apply to
characters or a story belongs in a discussion of creative fiction.

I hear you. As I just wrote in a different reply, I think I was coming fresh off the Asmodean mystery, and somehow the stars aligned for me and I wanted more mystery and saw my chance for it in Demandred and Taim. Only way I can explain it, for me, since I was in a vacuum. I thought he was turning a corner in creating more mysteries to solve. I mean, this was over a decade ago, but that's what I think I thought. I don't rightly fucking know anymore.

Post by Chucky @ Work
So, the TaimTAIMtard Theory boils down to two characters, each doing
different stuff. I did not have to correctly predict what that stuff
would be - not for Taim and *certainly* not for Demandred, who I
maintained was unconnected with Taim in any way - in order to be right
about this theory, and it *is* unfair and crappy of Taimandretards to
insist on it.

I do not insist you have an alternate theory to be right that Taim is Taim. I only discuss the pride and mocking coming from TaimTaimtards. In order for THAT to work, yes, an alternate theory is necessary.

Post by Chucky @ Work
Still, I was excessive in my vitriol and I apologise.

Thanks dude. I figured you missed this and needed somehow to bring the epic rant back, if only for a time.

Post by Chucky @ Work
I guess my blood
was up, getting back to the newsgroup after so long. And this is an
annoying topic that I sincerely wish would just die. *Please* try to
become a Taimandred Theorist on this.

I am not only trying but succeeding. PLEASE see that ;D

[Chucky @ Work]

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
I only started reading the newsgroups at around that stage, and only
started posting in '98 or '99. So I would imagine my reading
experience of the first six or seven books - the critical ones,
apparently, for formulation of any theories about Demandred or Taim -
was practically identical to yours. And I still came down on the side
of "Taim is Taim and Demandred is Demandred."

You know, this is a fair point, and would have to be chalked up to
our different thought processes, you being a creative writer, and
other factors I'm sure.

Right.

Post by Aaron
But what I will say here is I did not theorize about Taim as I read
through books 1-5, wherever he was mentioned or we saw him.
It was, as I stated, ONLY book 6 that initiated this in me.
Before that I was as you have always been, a TaimTaim guy.

Are you saying you didn't even wonder whether he was a bad guy or how
things were going to pan out with him, what he was thinking about the
real Dragon, and so on?

Or are you just saying you didn't begin to wonder if he might be a
Forsaken (specifically Demandred) in disguise? Because that I can buy.

Post by Aaron
So something changed for me with book 6 that did not with
you, and I've been trying to explain it, will try more below.
Regardless of how many books you read before the NG, didn't
you read them rather more spaced out than I did? Did you read
them closer to when they were written? I only happened on the
entire series in 2001, one year before my NG introduction. That's
still going to make a difference in the well-thought-outness of
my theories vs. yours. I was young and excited, in other
words, instead of old and wise.

Um.

Yeah, okay. I started reading the books in '94 or so, while I was in
high school, and talked a bit about them then (mainly limited to
various cool stuff, not really in-depth about who was who in disguise,
although there was a bit of that), and started reading the newsgroups
in '97 or '98. Then I started joining in newsgroup discussions in '98
or '99.

So, whatever.

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
Boiled down, the Taimandred Theory is that Taim and Demandred are the
same person: two characters are in fact one character, doing stuff.

Yeah, it struck our fancy. Especially leading up to book 6, there were
a few (short-lived) Forsaken in disguise. Lanfear did it twice, once in
a "leading up to" way as that fat chick, Rahvin though he wasn't in
disguise I guess, Asmodean ditto about no disguise but trying to
get close to the main characters. I think as the books progressed,
even though initially the Forsaken who were released were out in
the open, there was a developing "rash" of Forsaken trying to
get close to prominent characters in the books. Several trying
to get close to Rand.

You know, ever since the Darkfriend gathering with Bors / Carridin in
the beginning of The Great Hunt (Book 2), Jordan was laying out little
clues about Aes Sedai rings and Sea Folk silks and Tairen maze hems,
playing the Who Is A Darkfriend game. I don't really accept that he
wasn't doing it. I will, however, agree that he wasn't doing it
terribly well.

Indeed, the "who is a Darkfriend" thing was something I remember
vaguely talking about in school. So I don't think it's fair to say
that Jordan wasn't all about this sort of intrigue from the start.
Heck, he even slipped a fair amount of "who is Tam?" and "who are
Moiraine and Lan?" into the first book.

Taim was much the same sort of thing. I just never agreed with the "he
has to be Demandred" attitude.

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
It was a simple matter of maximising the number of characters who
could potentially do fun stuff. I have the same issue with most of
these "rule of conservation of characters"-based theories making one
character turn out to be another in disguise. It should never have
been described as a literary rule. It can occasionally be used to good
effect but nobody who thinks it is a sensible rule to apply to
characters or a story belongs in a discussion of creative fiction.

I hear you. As I just wrote in a different reply, I think I was coming
fresh off the Asmodean mystery, and somehow the stars aligned for
me and I wanted more mystery and saw my chance for it in
Demandred and Taim. Only way I can explain it, for me, since I
was in a vacuum. I thought he was turning a corner in creating
more mysteries to solve. I mean, this was over a decade ago, but
that's what I think I thought. I don't rightly fucking know anymore.

*shrug*

Post by Aaron
I do not insist you have an alternate theory to be right that Taim
is Taim. I only discuss the pride and mocking coming from
TaimTaimtards. In order for THAT to work, yes, an
alternate theory is necessary.

Nonsense. All I am saying is "we were right and you were wrong". The
mockery comes in when you shoot back with "you were wrong and we were
right until Jordan consciously decided to make us wrong" and "we were
right from the start and you were only right in a random 'nuh-uh' way
that doesn't count as actually being right". Instead of "yeah, bummer,
you were right."

Fuckin'-A you deserve to be mocked for that and we deserve to be the
ones doing the mocking.

Now go away or I shall mock you a second time.

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
Still, I was excessive in my vitriol and I apologise.

Thanks dude. I figured you missed this and needed somehow to
bring the epic rant back, if only for a time.

Pity the only person around to step up to the plate was such a
colossal pussy.




***@w

[Aaron]

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
But what I will say here is I did not theorize about Taim as I read
through books 1-5, wherever he was mentioned or we saw him.
It was, as I stated, ONLY book 6 that initiated this in me.
Before that I was as you have always been, a TaimTaim guy.

Are you saying you didn't even wonder whether he was a bad guy or how
things were going to pan out with him, what he was thinking about the
real Dragon, and so on?

Oh, no, I'm not saying that. I worried about him being Black a great deal.

Post by Chucky @ Work
Or are you just saying you didn't begin to wonder if he might be a
Forsaken (specifically Demandred) in disguise? Because that I can buy.

Right, that one. Seems you're ready to buy the right item.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
Boiled down, the Taimandred Theory is that Taim and Demandred are the
same person: two characters are in fact one character, doing stuff.

Yeah, it struck our fancy. Especially leading up to book 6, there were
a few (short-lived) Forsaken in disguise. Lanfear did it twice, once in
a "leading up to" way as that fat chick, Rahvin though he wasn't in
disguise I guess, Asmodean ditto about no disguise but trying to
get close to the main characters. I think as the books progressed,
even though initially the Forsaken who were released were out in
the open, there was a developing "rash" of Forsaken trying to
get close to prominent characters in the books. Several trying
to get close to Rand.

You know, ever since the Darkfriend gathering with Bors / Carridin in
the beginning of The Great Hunt (Book 2), Jordan was laying out little
clues about Aes Sedai rings and Sea Folk silks and Tairen maze hems,
playing the Who Is A Darkfriend game. I don't really accept that he
wasn't doing it. I will, however, agree that he wasn't doing it
terribly well.

Well, fair enough. But there were only a few Forsaken that had been released THAT early (that we knew of), and 3 of those were killed (temporarily, LOL), so I really wasn't starting to think about them being in disguise since each new one was revealed fairly quickly, as I said.

Until Demandred, when Jordan seemed to be wanting us to figure out what he was up to.

In hindsight, I think he wanted no such thing. Oh well.

Post by Chucky @ Work
Indeed, the "who is a Darkfriend" thing was something I remember
vaguely talking about in school. So I don't think it's fair to say
that Jordan wasn't all about this sort of intrigue from the start.
Heck, he even slipped a fair amount of "who is Tam?" and "who are
Moiraine and Lan?" into the first book.

Right, fair enough, the general "what's this guy's story" element was certainly there.

Post by Chucky @ Work
Taim was much the same sort of thing. I just never agreed with the "he
has to be Demandred" attitude.

*mumbles* I dunno about HAS to be...never said anything about HAS to be... */mumbles*

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
I do not insist you have an alternate theory to be right that Taim
is Taim. I only discuss the pride and mocking coming from
TaimTaimtards. In order for THAT to work, yes, an
alternate theory is necessary.

Nonsense. All I am saying is "we were right and you were wrong". The
mockery comes in when you shoot back with "you were wrong and we were
right until Jordan consciously decided to make us wrong" and "we were
right from the start and you were only right in a random 'nuh-uh' way
that doesn't count as actually being right". Instead of "yeah, bummer,
you were right."

OK so you deserve to mock because of the way you were TREATED about being right in denying one theory with no alternative but the "everyone is who they are" DEFAULT alternative. Gotcha.

So since that's the reason you get to mock, you're kind of agreeing it's no big deal to have been one saying "they are just who they are, no mystery in Taim and Demandred."

You had that position about many in the series, sometimes to your detriment. Moridin. This is one thing I'll never see your way: that you deserve some sort of great praise for denying one theory. Lizard overlords.

I'll say it elsewhere, but you know how you keep thumping me with "TaimTaim was obvious all along"?

Well, fucking Ishydin was obvious too, buddy. These are two of those times where "to me" is strongly implied and, when not stated, does indeed make the statement insulting.

It's not objectively obvious, but the word "obvious" has such a strong meaning that if you don't mean "objectively" you kinda need to say it.

But I'm happy to say it objectively about Ishydin if you're saying it objectively about Taimandred. Because Ishydin was OB-VEE-US.

Post by Chucky @ Work
Fuckin'-A you deserve to be mocked for that and we deserve to be the
ones doing the mocking.

Well that much is true. Who else?

Post by Chucky @ Work
Now go away or I shall mock you a second time.

I fart in your general direction, as I go away.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
Still, I was excessive in my vitriol and I apologise.

Thanks dude. I figured you missed this and needed somehow to
bring the epic rant back, if only for a time.

Pity the only person around to step up to the plate was such a
colossal pussy.

Geez. Well I did ask you to stop being nice. Wish, fulfilled!

-Aaron

[Chucky @ Work]

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
You know, ever since the Darkfriend gathering with Bors / Carridin in
the beginning of The Great Hunt (Book 2), Jordan was laying out little
clues about Aes Sedai rings and Sea Folk silks and Tairen maze hems,
playing the Who Is A Darkfriend game. I don't really accept that he
wasn't doing it. I will, however, agree that he wasn't doing it
terribly well.

Well, fair enough. But there were only a few Forsaken that had
been released THAT early (that we knew of), and 3 of those
were killed (temporarily, LOL), so I really wasn't starting to
think about them being in disguise since each new one was
revealed fairly quickly, as I said.

No, I wasn't talking about Forsaken here, I was talking about your
claim that Jordan didn't like to mess around with intrigue and
questions of who might be bad guys and who might be behind the mask.
He did. Just not well.

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
Indeed, the "who is a Darkfriend" thing was something I remember
vaguely talking about in school. So I don't think it's fair to say
that Jordan wasn't all about this sort of intrigue from the start.
Heck, he even slipped a fair amount of "who is Tam?" and "who are
Moiraine and Lan?" into the first book.

Right, fair enough, the general "what's this guy's story" element was certainly there.

All I'm saying.

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
Taim was much the same sort of thing. I just never agreed with the "he
has to be Demandred" attitude.

*mumbles* I dunno about HAS to be...never said anything about
HAS to be... */mumbles*

You weren't around for me to disagree with. I'm talking about the
prevailing attitude at the time.

Do you think you would have qualified your theory with "could be"s?

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
Nonsense. All I am saying is "we were right and you were wrong". The
mockery comes in when you shoot back with "you were wrong and we were
right until Jordan consciously decided to make us wrong" and "we were
right from the start and you were only right in a random 'nuh-uh' way
that doesn't count as actually being right". Instead of "yeah, bummer,
you were right."

OK so you deserve to mock because of the way you were TREATED
about being right in denying one theory with no alternative but
the "everyone is who they are" DEFAULT alternative. Gotcha.

Except for the "no alternative" bit, like I said, there were several
alternatives thrown around and not really listened to because of the
prevailing "has to be" attitude.

Post by Aaron
So since that's the reason you get to mock, you're kind of
agreeing it's no big deal to have been one saying "they are
just who they are, no mystery in Taim and Demandred."

All I'm saying is that's what I said. You're the one making a big deal
out of it. Mainly because I am mocking you.

Post by Aaron
I'll say it elsewhere, but you know how you keep thumping
me with "TaimTaim was obvious all along"?

It was to me. Clearly not to many firmly-entrenched Taimandretards. Of
course, Taimandred was obvious too. Ishydin was obvious. Jon Targaryen
is obvious.

So, all things being equal, I go with what I prefer, as a reader of
the story.

Post by Aaron
Well, fucking Ishydin was obvious too, buddy.

Um, no fucking kidding, genius.

Post by Aaron
But I'm happy to say it objectively about Ishydin if
you're saying it objectively about Taimandred. Because
Ishydin was OB-VEE-US.

Good, okay. Now will you pay attention?




***@w

[Aaron]

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
Well, fucking Ishydin was obvious too, buddy.

Um, no fucking kidding, genius.

Ok I definitely don't know what "obvious" means, obviously. If it was obvious why did you get it wrong?

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
But I'm happy to say it objectively about Ishydin if
you're saying it objectively about Taimandred. Because
Ishydin was OB-VEE-US.

Good, okay. Now will you pay attention?

To, uhh, what?

Hey 2 quick things I just HAVE to go over again. I missed the appropriate comment of yours to reply to, so I gotta just rehash. Sorry.

And if you're capable of answering these objectively that would help. No, that's unfair, I know you are CAPABLE of it. If you would do me (us, the world) the favor of looking at this objectively for just this moment in time if at no other time, it would be awesome.

About Demandred (the REAL Demandred not the wrong Taimandred) in book 6...I don't see how you get around it being crappy writing. The bookend nature of his two visits to the DO REALLY fucking bother me. Not that the second one isn't cool. We've agreed on that.

And not being a writer I can't say this shit with certainty but I'm 99% sure I'm being fair here.

First off, to your point of the REAL Demandred quest being much more impressive, I agree that in the END it was way cooler than what Taim accomplished. But in the few months of book 6, compared to the many, many months or years even from then to book 15 or whatever the fuck, can we not agree that he only STARTED in Shara? That all they could be evil-laughing over was the potential of what he planned?

Surely, if his army of channelers etc. was already done by the end of book 6, he could have taken Rand captive at any time after that, with it. And those were the orders for a time. Killing him was also the order. Oh YEAH, in book fucking 9, he ordered Taim to kill him. Well, with a fucking giant army of Sharan soldiers and channelers, wouldn't that have been easy?

So, cool element or not, there couldn't logically have been anything to evil-laugh over at the end of book 6. Not any more than the goings-ons with Taim and the Black Tower.

But the bookending is what really pisses me off. At BEST it's a red herring for Taimandred (not sure if you have already agreed with that being a possible intent of RJ with Demandred, but I think many have). And that's being incredibly charitable.

I do not accept, unless you swear on your skill as a writer, that it is good writing to introduce a new character (heard of but unseen), talking to the big boss, at the start of a book. Then, a bunch of shit happens, and that new character, at the end of the book, asks the fucking big boss if he's done well. And the boss seems to agree.

If you really step back and think about it in those terms, just what RJ did, effectively, because Taimandred wasn't correct, it seems ridiculous to write it that way. There are many ways TO write it, with the cool moment still in there. But the bookend approach is retarded. I don't see a way around it.

I know you love it because you can mock Taimandretards thanks to it, but that's why I asked you to step back and be objective.

Would you, being quite a better writer than RJ, have really done it that way and not meant to be a dick? Because that's the only option I see for you intentionally doing that.

-Aaron

[Chucky @ Work]

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
Well, fucking Ishydin was obvious too, buddy.

Um, no fucking kidding, genius.

Ok I definitely don't know what "obvious" means, obviously. If it
was obvious why did you get it wrong?

Because I didn't like the theory, so decided to believe a different
one for as long as I could. Sheesh.

Post by Aaron
And if you're capable of answering these objectively that
would help. No, that's unfair, I know you are CAPABLE of it.
If you would do me (us, the world) the favor of looking at
this objectively for just this moment in time if at no other
time, it would be awesome.

Good recovery.

Post by Aaron
About Demandred (the REAL Demandred not the wrong
Taimandred) in book 6...I don't see how you get around
it being crappy writing. The bookend nature of his two
visits to the DO REALLY fucking bother me. Not that
the second one isn't cool. We've agreed on that.

Um, okay, I remember the scenes. What's your question?

Post by Aaron
And not being a writer I can't say this shit with certainty
but I'm 99% sure I'm being fair here.
First off, to your point of the REAL Demandred quest
being much more impressive, I agree that in the END it
was way cooler than what Taim accomplished. But in the
few months of book 6, compared to the many, many
months or years even from then to book 15 or whatever
the fuck, can we not agree that he only STARTED in
Shara?

Actually I have no idea. It depends on what we theorise Demandred
actually doing in Shara at that time.

While Taim was being named (by Rand, incidentally, and without ever
really doing anything much to earn it besides "be Taim") as
second-in-command at the Black Tower and basically doing as he was
told (with the minor mess and freakouts and assassination attempts
that were either plants to establish his trustworthiness or out of
character for Demandred, either way, I mentioned all this before),
what was Demandred doing?

Sure, fair to say this was a slow process (and I'm not entirely sure
what the time-frame was for those books anyway, it was mere months I
think, but lack the wherewithal to go digging), and he only would have
made a start. Which isn't to say he hadn't outlined the *plan*. Like
you say here.

Post by Aaron
That all they could be evil-laughing over was the potential
of what he planned?

Maybe. But yeah, I'm not loving it. The plan, coupled with a good
solid start to the plan - that I can see.

Seems more likely that Demandred went over there, scoped out the
"Wyld" prophecies (if they were the Sharan equivalent of the Dragon
prophecies) or created them at a grass-roots level (or even using
Tel'Aran'Rhiod), and showed the Dark One how he was going to fulfill
them. Semirhage was doing similar things in Seanchan, after all, in
becoming the Truthspeaker to the Empress or whateverthefuck she was,
so this isn't without precedent.

Depending on the timeline, this would also involve a certain amount of
fucking up / destabilising the country (Graendal's acquisition of the
Sharan nobility probably helped there, and again, we've seen how
Semirhage's butchering of the Seanchan royal family basically took the
entire nation out of the equation, aside from the Forerunners and the
Return), and moving in to fill the gap or be seen to have been
responsible somehow. Most of the Dragon prophecies follow this general
pattern. And the False Dragons had been doing much the same sort of
thing with varying degrees of success for years. And they were
ill-prepared kids in comparison to Demandred.

He was told to let the Lord of Chaos rule, and that seems pretty
clearly what the Wyld was all about.

But this is completely into the realm of conjecture, so I'm not sure
what you're expecting. This is nothing we weren't supposed to piece
together once we learned where Demandred *really was*. And no, I don't
really see how this is crappy writing.

Post by Aaron
Surely, if his army of channelers etc. was already done by
the end of book 6, he could have taken Rand captive at
any time after that, with it.

Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure he wasn't completely done.

Post by Aaron
And those were the orders for a time. Killing him was also the
order. Oh YEAH, in book fucking 9, he ordered Taim to kill him.
Well, with a fucking giant army of Sharan soldiers and
channelers, wouldn't that have been easy?

You'd think so. Keep in mind though, book 9 wasn't *that much* longer
after book 6, chronologically. It's fairly plausible that he still
didn't have his Wyld on. Heck, it's entirely likely he didn't get it
all sorted until right at the point where he attacked.

And those "kill the Dragon" (or whatever the orders were) commands
were noted as a pretty unfair and inconsistent set of commands. Shit,
Carridin had his entire family butchered for his failure to kill the
boys. He was just a bloke. I mean, he was sort of in command of the
Questioners, but could he really be expected to kill these guys? And
yet, looks like he was.

That, to me, smacked of crappy writing incidentally. It was just a
vehicle to show how horrible and mean the bad guys were. And it was
completely arbitrary and meaningless and made the bad guys look kinda
dumb.

Post by Aaron
So, cool element or not, there couldn't logically have been
anything to evil-laugh over at the end of book 6. Not any
more than the goings-ons with Taim and the Black Tower.

Disagree.

Post by Aaron
But the bookending is what really pisses me off. At BEST it's
a red herring for Taimandred (not sure if you have already
agreed with that being a possible intent of RJ with
Demandred, but I think many have). And that's being
incredibly charitable.

The "have I not done well" and the laugh? No, I rejected this as
Taimandred evidence and I obviously still do, since it turns out it
wasn't. Sorry.

Post by Aaron
I do not accept, unless you swear on your skill as a writer,
that it is good writing to introduce a new character (heard of
but unseen), talking to the big boss, at the start of a book.
Then, a bunch of shit happens, and that new character,
at the end of the book, asks the fucking big boss if he's
done well. And the boss seems to agree.

If it makes a bunch of people think it was that character doing the
bunch of shit, and it turns out it wasn't, then sure. It's fucking
awesome writing. Hats off to the big man.

Could have been done better, of course. This is Jordan we're talking
about. But yeah. It was great. Gave me a laugh. Since by this stage we
were settling into what was obviously going to be a *really* long
series, I didn't see the point in introducing a mystery and solving it
in the one book. I wanted a book-spanning arc, and I got one. The
*alternative* would have been crappy writing (not to mention
unimaginative), to me. Not what we got.

Post by Aaron
If you really step back and think about it in those terms, just
what RJ did, effectively, because Taimandred wasn't correct,
it seems ridiculous to write it that way. There are many ways
TO write it, with the cool moment still in there. But the
bookend approach is retarded. I don't see a way around it.

*shrug*

Post by Aaron
I know you love it because you can mock Taimandretards
thanks to it, but that's why I asked you to step back and
be objective.

How objective do you want me to be? I'm not mocking now. But I fail to
see how saying "yeah, that's really dumb, it must mean the Taimandred
Theory was right up to and beyond that point" is objective.

Heck, I can completely understand your labelling this part of the
story as crappy writing. I think Ishydin was crappy writing. Your
insistence on objectivity is pretty nonsensical.

Post by Aaron
Would you, being quite a better writer than RJ, have really
done it that way and not meant to be a dick? Because that's
the only option I see for you intentionally doing that.

I'm flattered, and no I don't think I would have done it that way. If,
however, I wanted people to think Taim was a Forsaken in disguise and
Demandred was a convenient candidate for that, but I intended Taim to
be Taim and Demandred to be elsewhere in the end, shit, I don't know.
Maybe I would have written something similar.

Jordan did always say that he had the ending all planned out. Maybe
the Wyld of Shara was always part of that.









***@w

[Aaron]

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
Ok I definitely don't know what "obvious" means, obviously. If it
was obvious why did you get it wrong?

Because I didn't like the theory, so decided to believe a different
one for as long as I could. Sheesh.

Well, ok then.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
And if you're capable of answering these objectively that
would help. No, that's unfair, I know you are CAPABLE of it.
If you would do me (us, the world) the favor of looking at
this objectively for just this moment in time if at no other
time, it would be awesome.

Good recovery.

Always funny considering I could have just written it the nice way from the start.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
About Demandred (the REAL Demandred not the wrong
Taimandred) in book 6...I don't see how you get around
it being crappy writing. The bookend nature of his two
visits to the DO REALLY fucking bother me. Not that
the second one isn't cool. We've agreed on that.

Um, okay, I remember the scenes. What's your question?

I'm getting to it!

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
And not being a writer I can't say this shit with certainty
but I'm 99% sure I'm being fair here.
First off, to your point of the REAL Demandred quest
being much more impressive, I agree that in the END it
was way cooler than what Taim accomplished. But in the
few months of book 6, compared to the many, many
months or years even from then to book 15 or whatever
the fuck, can we not agree that he only STARTED in
Shara?

Actually I have no idea. It depends on what we theorise Demandred
actually doing in Shara at that time.

And what RJ actually theorized if you believe he did. See, the "good writing" of this, as illustrated by you, hinges on how well thought-out or at least outlined this was. You have, upon reflection, MADE it into good writing, sure. And I appreciate that, it was awesome.

I don't accept this was the case at the end of book 6.

It was more along the lines of "tee hee hee let them wonder about THAT! Now, time for some more significant sniffing from Nynaeve!"

Post by Chucky @ Work
While Taim was being named (by Rand, incidentally, and without ever
really doing anything much to earn it besides "be Taim") as
second-in-command at the Black Tower and basically doing as he was
told (with the minor mess and freakouts and assassination attempts
that were either plants to establish his trustworthiness or out of
character for Demandred, either way, I mentioned all this before),
what was Demandred doing?
Sure, fair to say this was a slow process (and I'm not entirely sure
what the time-frame was for those books anyway, it was mere months I
think, but lack the wherewithal to go digging), and he only would have
made a start. Which isn't to say he hadn't outlined the *plan*. Like
you say here.

Post by Aaron
That all they could be evil-laughing over was the potential
of what he planned?

Maybe. But yeah, I'm not loving it. The plan, coupled with a good
solid start to the plan - that I can see.

Glad you're not loving it. You're at least conflicted over this writing and that's all I could really hope for.

Post by Chucky @ Work
Seems more likely that Demandred went over there, scoped out the
"Wyld" prophecies (if they were the Sharan equivalent of the Dragon
prophecies) or created them at a grass-roots level (or even using
Tel'Aran'Rhiod), and showed the Dark One how he was going to fulfill
them. Semirhage was doing similar things in Seanchan, after all, in
becoming the Truthspeaker to the Empress or whateverthefuck she was,
so this isn't without precedent.
Depending on the timeline, this would also involve a certain amount of
fucking up / destabilising the country (Graendal's acquisition of the
Sharan nobility probably helped there, and again, we've seen how
Semirhage's butchering of the Seanchan royal family basically took the
entire nation out of the equation, aside from the Forerunners and the
Return), and moving in to fill the gap or be seen to have been
responsible somehow. Most of the Dragon prophecies follow this general
pattern. And the False Dragons had been doing much the same sort of
thing with varying degrees of success for years. And they were
ill-prepared kids in comparison to Demandred.
He was told to let the Lord of Chaos rule, and that seems pretty
clearly what the Wyld was all about.
But this is completely into the realm of conjecture, so I'm not sure
what you're expecting. This is nothing we weren't supposed to piece
together once we learned where Demandred *really was*. And no, I don't
really see how this is crappy writing.

With all that, it's not. But all that, for all we know, is YOU. And maybe, much later, he got there in his mind. Or maybe he had it planned all along because he's a great writer. Oh wait! We already handled our thoughts on that final possibility.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
Surely, if his army of channelers etc. was already done by
the end of book 6, he could have taken Rand captive at
any time after that, with it.

Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure he wasn't completely done.

Post by Aaron
And those were the orders for a time. Killing him was also the
order. Oh YEAH, in book fucking 9, he ordered Taim to kill him.
Well, with a fucking giant army of Sharan soldiers and
channelers, wouldn't that have been easy?

You'd think so. Keep in mind though, book 9 wasn't *that much* longer
after book 6, chronologically. It's fairly plausible that he still
didn't have his Wyld on. Heck, it's entirely likely he didn't get it
all sorted until right at the point where he attacked.
And those "kill the Dragon" (or whatever the orders were) commands
were noted as a pretty unfair and inconsistent set of commands. Shit,
Carridin had his entire family butchered for his failure to kill the
boys. He was just a bloke. I mean, he was sort of in command of the
Questioners, but could he really be expected to kill these guys? And
yet, looks like he was.
That, to me, smacked of crappy writing incidentally. It was just a
vehicle to show how horrible and mean the bad guys were. And it was
completely arbitrary and meaningless and made the bad guys look kinda
dumb.

Agreed. *snoots*

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
So, cool element or not, there couldn't logically have been
anything to evil-laugh over at the end of book 6. Not any
more than the goings-ons with Taim and the Black Tower.

Disagree.

Well, fair enough, there could have been SOME. Possibly maybe.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
But the bookending is what really pisses me off. At BEST it's
a red herring for Taimandred (not sure if you have already
agreed with that being a possible intent of RJ with
Demandred, but I think many have). And that's being
incredibly charitable.

The "have I not done well" and the laugh? No, I rejected this as
Taimandred evidence and I obviously still do, since it turns out it
wasn't. Sorry.

Whoa. I wrote "red herring". That means meant to mislead. Does that always imply it's good evidence? If so, I misunderstand the term.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
I do not accept, unless you swear on your skill as a writer,
that it is good writing to introduce a new character (heard of
but unseen), talking to the big boss, at the start of a book.
Then, a bunch of shit happens, and that new character,
at the end of the book, asks the fucking big boss if he's
done well. And the boss seems to agree.

If it makes a bunch of people think it was that character doing the
bunch of shit, and it turns out it wasn't, then sure. It's fucking
awesome writing. Hats off to the big man.

So it was a red herring then. And I knew it, see this is why I asked you to be "objective" but maybe that's the wrong term. You're enjoying it because of the whole Taimandretard debacle and your role in it. You're relishing the end result which may or may not have been intentional. Just as I suggested at the end of my comment.

That does NOT make this good writing.

Post by Chucky @ Work
Could have been done better, of course. This is Jordan we're talking
about. But yeah. It was great. Gave me a laugh. Since by this stage we
were settling into what was obviously going to be a *really* long
series, I didn't see the point in introducing a mystery and solving it
in the one book. I wanted a book-spanning arc, and I got one. The
*alternative* would have been crappy writing (not to mention
unimaginative), to me. Not what we got.

All right.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
If you really step back and think about it in those terms, just
what RJ did, effectively, because Taimandred wasn't correct,
it seems ridiculous to write it that way. There are many ways
TO write it, with the cool moment still in there. But the
bookend approach is retarded. I don't see a way around it.

*shrug*

Post by Aaron
I know you love it because you can mock Taimandretards
thanks to it, but that's why I asked you to step back and
be objective.

Nailed that one.

Post by Chucky @ Work
How objective do you want me to be? I'm not mocking now. But I fail to
see how saying "yeah, that's really dumb, it must mean the Taimandred
Theory was right up to and beyond that point" is objective.

You were definitely mocking in your head.

Post by Chucky @ Work
Heck, I can completely understand your labelling this part of the
story as crappy writing. I think Ishydin was crappy writing. Your
insistence on objectivity is pretty nonsensical.

Maybe it was the wrong term.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
Would you, being quite a better writer than RJ, have really
done it that way and not meant to be a dick? Because that's
the only option I see for you intentionally doing that.

I'm flattered, and no I don't think I would have done it that way. If,
however, I wanted people to think Taim was a Forsaken in disguise and
Demandred was a convenient candidate for that, but I intended Taim to
be Taim and Demandred to be elsewhere in the end, shit, I don't know.
Maybe I would have written something similar.

Fair enough and thanks for that.

Post by Chucky @ Work
Jordan did always say that he had the ending all planned out. Maybe
the Wyld of Shara was always part of that.

Maybe. A good writer would have.

-Aaron

[Chucky @ Work]

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
And if you're capable of answering these objectively that
would help. No, that's unfair, I know you are CAPABLE of it.
If you would do me (us, the world) the favor of looking at
this objectively for just this moment in time if at no other
time, it would be awesome.

Good recovery.

Always funny considering I could have just written it the
nice way from the start.

I like it, makes the conversation have a natural flow. You know, like
the man-strual cycle it is.

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
First off, to your point of the REAL Demandred quest
being much more impressive, I agree that in the END it
was way cooler than what Taim accomplished. But in the
few months of book 6, compared to the many, many
months or years even from then to book 15 or whatever
the fuck, can we not agree that he only STARTED in
Shara?

Actually I have no idea. It depends on what we theorise
Demandred actually doing in Shara at that time.

And what RJ actually theorized if you believe he did.

Right.

But we can't possibly know that. So all we have to fall back on is
what he *wrote*, and in case of a tie we go to the penalties - ie.
what he allegedly *said*.

Post by Aaron
See, the "good writing" of this, as illustrated by you, hinges
on how well thought-out or at least outlined this was. You
have, upon reflection, MADE it into good writing, sure. And
I appreciate that, it was awesome.
I don't accept this was the case at the end of book 6.

Sure, I understand and appreciate that position. Of course book 6 gave
you (as a Taimandred Theorist) that sequence of "clues" and you felt
good about putting them together and felt very strongly that you were
*meant* to have put them together.

I disagree, of course. Actually the more I think about it, the more I
sort-of *like* the way Jordan dealt with Demandred in Lord of
Chaos.Still wasn't great, but from my point of view (as a hint to a
larger book-arching secret plotline rather than a clue to an identity
mystery that's self-contained right within that book) it's not
horrible.

Book 6 was the beginning of the downslide though, very much so. He
peaked around book 3 or 4, and by the time he got to book 7 he was
deep in the doldrums. So you're certainly on solid ground saying it
was badly done. It just ... I don't know, I guess if anything, it
strikes me as poor-quality writing in a completely different sense to
the poor quality we saw in those tortuous volumes 8 - 11. Maybe it was
clumsy, but it was still *dynamic clumsy*. And that, to me, suggested
he knew what he was doing there, and was enjoying getting from point A
to point ... uh, A-and-a-half.

Like David said, there are other examples of this. You can't afford to
write off some of the stuff Sanderson finished up as being completely
unplanned and unintended by Jordan. This was *his* story and I have to
give him his dues even though Sanderson did a fantastic job of
finishing it.

Post by Aaron
It was more along the lines of "tee hee hee let them wonder
about THAT! Now, time for some more significant sniffing
from Nynaeve!"

This is good, this is healthy. We have moved from "I was right all
along and the people who disagreed with Taimandred were wrong and
Jordan was a lying cheating hack and after he changed the story I was
still right up to that point and right afterwards too because I
changed my theory and the people who disagreed with Taimandred were
only right in an accidental random way that doesn't count at that
point and up to that point they were still wrong, so 'wrong for the
first 8 books' and 'right for the last 6 books' adds up to a total
balance of being more wrong than right," to "I was wrong and the
people who disagreed with Taimandred were right, but my guess was
justified and I was let down by crappy writing."

Kudos.

And my condolences.

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
Maybe. But yeah, I'm not loving it. The plan, coupled with a good
solid start to the plan - that I can see.

Glad you're not loving it. You're at least conflicted over this
writing and that's all I could really hope for.

You did ask me to be objective, and while I maintain that this is not
possible when discussing a work of fiction, I thnik you meant "be fair
and open-minded", and so I am. I'm a little hurt at the implication
that I haven't been fair and open-minded all along, but no matter. I
can be fair and open-minded and still call people fuckwits.

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
Seems more likely that Demandred went over there, scoped out the
"Wyld" prophecies (if they were the Sharan equivalent of the Dragon
prophecies) or created them at a grass-roots level (or even using
Tel'Aran'Rhiod), and showed the Dark One how he was going to fulfill
them. Semirhage was doing similar things in Seanchan, after all, in
becoming the Truthspeaker to the Empress or whateverthefuck she was,
so this isn't without precedent.
Depending on the timeline, this would also involve a certain amount of
fucking up / destabilising the country (Graendal's acquisition of the
Sharan nobility probably helped there, and again, we've seen how
Semirhage's butchering of the Seanchan royal family basically took the
entire nation out of the equation, aside from the Forerunners and the
Return), and moving in to fill the gap or be seen to have been
responsible somehow. Most of the Dragon prophecies follow this general
pattern. And the False Dragons had been doing much the same sort of
thing with varying degrees of success for years. And they were
ill-prepared kids in comparison to Demandred.
He was told to let the Lord of Chaos rule, and that seems pretty
clearly what the Wyld was all about.
But this is completely into the realm of conjecture, so I'm not sure
what you're expecting. This is nothing we weren't supposed to piece
together once we learned where Demandred *really was*. And no, I don't
really see how this is crappy writing.

With all that, it's not. But all that, for all we know, is YOU.

Again, flattered, but this wasn't even remotely as cool as what I
could come up with if I put a little time and thought into it. This
was just my immediate impression on reading the books, and an
off-the-top-of-my-head idea of how it would have gone - and how
readers were maybe intended to piece the timeline together.

Beyond that, we get into authorial intent again so let's not
bother.What did Jordan *want* us to piece together in hindsight? What
did he have planned when he wrote books 3, 4, 5 and 6, that would only
come to fruition later in the saga?

Fair to say I subscribe to (and I think you would agree with)
Tolkien's idea that a reader gets out of a story what he brings into
it.

I saw the above. You saw a crappy bit of writing that misled you in
book 6, and a reasonable retcon of some sort in book 14 that had
dubious connectivity to the aforementioned crappy writing. Near as I
can guess. So be it.

Post by Aaron
And maybe, much later, he got there in his mind. Or maybe
he had it planned all along because he's a great writer. Oh
wait! We already handled our thoughts on that final possibility.

Yeah, don't be trying to toss out a possibility based on a sweeping
generalisation we agreed on regarding his writing. He was still more
than capable of planning something like this and it wouldn't take a
great writer. It wouldn't even take a great *mystery or intrigue
writer* which (to remind you) was what I *actually* said he wasn't, in
my view.

Heck, he was still more than capable of *greatness*, in some elements
of the story. And he was more than capable of clumsiness, ambiguity,
and relentless tedium. That shit is completely subjective.

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
So, cool element or not, there couldn't logically have been
anything to evil-laugh over at the end of book 6. Not any
more than the goings-ons with Taim and the Black Tower.

Disagree.

Well, fair enough, there could have been SOME. Possibly maybe.

And given what we now know about the Dark One and his motivations and
essence (which in turn we sort of have to assume Jordan had at least
somewhat in mind all along), who's to say what that laugh really
meant?

Suffice it to say, at the time I don't (didn't) think Taim's
activities warranted it, and in retrospect they obviously didn't.

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
But the bookending is what really pisses me off. At BEST it's
a red herring for Taimandred (not sure if you have already
agreed with that being a possible intent of RJ with
Demandred, but I think many have). And that's being
incredibly charitable.

The "have I not done well" and the laugh? No, I rejected this as
Taimandred evidence and I obviously still do, since it turns out it
wasn't. Sorry.

Whoa. I wrote "red herring". That means meant to mislead.
Does that always imply it's good evidence? If so, I
misunderstand the term.

I'm not understanding what you mean by "a red herring for Taimandred".
Do you mean it was intended to mislead people *away* from thinking
Taimandred was a thing? Or do you mean it was intended to mislead
people *into* thinking Taimandred was a thing? I'm assuming the
latter.

What I'm saying is, I didn't consider it as pointing the reader
towards Taimandred. Even if you think it was. Even if it *was*. As I
say below.

Not sure where this "always ... good evidence" set of requirements
came in. That looks like planted evidence to me, officer.

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
I do not accept, unless you swear on your skill as a writer,
that it is good writing to introduce a new character (heard of
but unseen), talking to the big boss, at the start of a book.
Then, a bunch of shit happens, and that new character,
at the end of the book, asks the fucking big boss if he's
done well. And the boss seems to agree.

If it makes a bunch of people think it was that character doing the
bunch of shit, and it turns out it wasn't, then sure. It's fucking
awesome writing. Hats off to the big man.

So it was a red herring then.

*shrug* I don't know whether it was or not, really. I know I didn't
really take it as one. And it seems you and some other Taimandred
Theorists did. So was it, or not?

That's the great thing about subjective opinion. To you it was a red
herring. To me it wasn't. What did the author intend? Who cares? Maybe
he too was just letting the Lord of Chaos rule. Ever think of that?

Post by Aaron
And I knew it, see this is why I
asked you to be "objective" but maybe that's the wrong term.

I'd say so. But I am aware of your mild delusions about objectivity.

Post by Aaron
You're enjoying it because of the whole Taimandretard debacle and
your role in it. You're relishing the end result which may or may not
have been intentional. Just as I suggested at the end of my
comment.
That does NOT make this good writing.

Of course not, from your point of view.

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
Could have been done better, of course. This is Jordan we're talking
about. But yeah. It was great. Gave me a laugh. Since by this stage we
were settling into what was obviously going to be a *really* long
series, I didn't see the point in introducing a mystery and solving it
in the one book. I wanted a book-spanning arc, and I got one. The
*alternative* would have been crappy writing (not to mention
unimaginative), to me. Not what we got.

All right.

I do feel that the above is one of the most important points I made in
explaining my position on this. And I appreciate you getting me to
think about it. Who would have thought it, for such an old and tired
subject?

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
How objective do you want me to be? I'm not mocking now. But I fail to
see how saying "yeah, that's really dumb, it must mean the Taimandred
Theory was right up to and beyond that point" is objective.

You were definitely mocking in your head.

I was definitely mocking out loud. When I said "I'm not mocking now",
though, I meant it. If I was mocking in my head, I'd still be writing
it down here, you should know that.

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
Jordan did always say that he had the ending all planned out. Maybe
the Wyld of Shara was always part of that.

Maybe. A good writer would have.

And I'm not ever going to go so far as to say Jordan wasn't a *good*
writer, so don't think you can sneakily slide the definition down that
way, like a baseball player stealing third or whatever they do.

You're on your own with that one, evidence-planter.




***@w

[Chucky @ Work]

Post by Chucky @ Work
Sure, I understand and appreciate that position. Of course book 6 gave
you (as a Taimandred Theorist) that sequence of "clues" and you felt
good about putting them together and felt very strongly that you were
*meant* to have put them together.

And this made me think of something else.

You've said that Jordan didn't do intrigue and mystery very well, and
I tend to agree. Or at least he didn't seem to do all that much of it
or make it an integral part of his story except in a couple of places.

But you've also said that you considered the Taimandred evidence to be
subtle and not-obvious, therefore a clever thing for a reader to have
worked out. Doesn't this sort of suggest that Jordan (up to that
point) was writing well? That he *was* good at this sort of thing?

Maybe I've missed the point and this was what you were saying? That
you thought he was good because the theory was good and the book
supported the theory so the book was good, but when it was turned
around you realised it *wasn't* good, and Jordan wasn't that good at
intrigue and stuff after all?

Is that what you're saying? If so, fair. It's a bit inconsistent with
the other sweeping stuff we've discussed about his plot points, but
maybe if you specify "up to and including book 6", it holds water.

Anyway.

Post by Chucky @ Work
You did ask me to be objective, and while I maintain that this is not
possible when discussing a work of fiction, I thnik you meant "be fair

Thnik? Thnik, seriously? Yeesh.

Post by Chucky @ Work
That's the great thing about subjective opinion. To you it was a red
herring. To me it wasn't. What did the author intend? Who cares? Maybe
he too was just letting the Lord of Chaos rule. Ever think of that?

Actually, I rather like *this* the more I "thnik" about it too. Jordan
using the Dark One to break the fourth wall and have a good chortle,
not only because things were going swimmingly in the story, but
because he was enjoying a nice mind-fuck into the bargain. Moo ha ha.




***@w

[Aaron]

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Chucky @ Work
Sure, I understand and appreciate that position. Of course book 6 gave
you (as a Taimandred Theorist) that sequence of "clues" and you felt
good about putting them together and felt very strongly that you were
*meant* to have put them together.

And this made me think of something else.

ITYM "thnik".

Post by Chucky @ Work
You've said that Jordan didn't do intrigue and mystery very well, and
I tend to agree. Or at least he didn't seem to do all that much of it
or make it an integral part of his story except in a couple of places.

Right....

Post by Chucky @ Work
But you've also said that you considered the Taimandred evidence to be
subtle and not-obvious, therefore a clever thing for a reader to have
worked out. Doesn't this sort of suggest that Jordan (up to that
point) was writing well? That he *was* good at this sort of thing?

We concur that he was writing well through book 6. At the same time, it is the FALLOUT from book 6 and non-Taimandred-evidence later that *changed* my opinion about his writing. So I don't see how this point works against my position.

Post by Chucky @ Work
Maybe I've missed the point and this was what you were saying? That
you thought he was good because the theory was good and the book
supported the theory so the book was good, but when it was turned
around you realised it *wasn't* good, and Jordan wasn't that good at
intrigue and stuff after all?

Precisely. Oh but I see we have another issue with that, ok....

Post by Chucky @ Work
Is that what you're saying? If so, fair. It's a bit inconsistent with
the other sweeping stuff we've discussed about his plot points, but
maybe if you specify "up to and including book 6", it holds water.

Does it? I'm intrigued. How am I being inconsistent, exactly? You know how I do try not to be inconsistent or illogical.

Post by Chucky @ Work
Anyway.

Post by Chucky @ Work
You did ask me to be objective, and while I maintain that this is not
possible when discussing a work of fiction, I thnik you meant "be fair

Thnik? Thnik, seriously? Yeesh.

Post by Chucky @ Work
That's the great thing about subjective opinion. To you it was a red
herring. To me it wasn't. What did the author intend? Who cares? Maybe
he too was just letting the Lord of Chaos rule. Ever think of that?

Actually, I rather like *this* the more I "thnik" about it too. Jordan
using the Dark One to break the fourth wall and have a good chortle,
not only because things were going swimmingly in the story, but
because he was enjoying a nice mind-fuck into the bargain. Moo ha ha.

So just allow it!

-Aaron

[Chucky @ Work]

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
And this made me think of something else.

ITYM "thnik".

Right, right.

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
But you've also said that you considered the Taimandred evidence to be
subtle and not-obvious, therefore a clever thing for a reader to have
worked out. Doesn't this sort of suggest that Jordan (up to that
point) was writing well? That he *was* good at this sort of thing?

We concur that he was writing well through book 6.
At the same time, it is the FALLOUT from book 6 and non-Taimandred-
evidence later that *changed* my opinion about his writing. So
I don't see how this point works against my position.

It doesn't, really. Like I said, if you specify "up to and including
book 6", you're okay.

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
Maybe I've missed the point and this was what you were saying? That
you thought he was good because the theory was good and the book
supported the theory so the book was good, but when it was turned
around you realised it *wasn't* good, and Jordan wasn't that good at
intrigue and stuff after all?

Precisely. Oh but I see we have another issue with that, ok....

Post by Chucky @ Work
Is that what you're saying? If so, fair. It's a bit inconsistent with
the other sweeping stuff we've discussed about his plot points, but
maybe if you specify "up to and including book 6", it holds water.

Does it? I'm intrigued. How am I being inconsistent,
exactly? You know how I do try not to be inconsistent or illogical.

Like I just said *right there*, as long as you're only talking about
how it affects your opinion of him as a writer as specifically relates
to the latter books, that's fine.

See, to me, a judgement of "not a great writer" needs to apply to all
his stuff. Otherwise, he's just a great writer who slipped up in this
case, and did something not-so-great. Doesn't make him a hack.

So yeah, it does seem like you're letting this glitch in the writing
(specifically as relates to how it made you be wrong about a theory
you had) colour your opinion of whether or not this writer's any good,
in a rather sweeping way. That's according to *my* understanding of
what someone means when they say they think an author isn't that
great. Which clearly differs from yours in this case. Which in turn
made it seem a bit extreme to me, and makes me question your vaunted
objectivity.

Which is fine, if you want to join me in reality and admit that you
don't *have* an objective view because *this is entirely subjective*.

So try doing that.

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
Actually, I rather like *this* the more I "thnik" about it too. Jordan
using the Dark One to break the fourth wall and have a good chortle,
not only because things were going swimmingly in the story, but
because he was enjoying a nice mind-fuck into the bargain. Moo ha ha.

So just allow it!

Oh, I do. What gave you the impression that I wasn't? Could it be the
fact that you aren't paying much attention?




***@w

[Aaron]

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
Maybe I've missed the point and this was what you were saying? That
you thought he was good because the theory was good and the book
supported the theory so the book was good, but when it was turned
around you realised it *wasn't* good, and Jordan wasn't that good at
intrigue and stuff after all?

Precisely. Oh but I see we have another issue with that, ok....

Post by Chucky @ Work
Is that what you're saying? If so, fair. It's a bit inconsistent with
the other sweeping stuff we've discussed about his plot points, but
maybe if you specify "up to and including book 6", it holds water.

Does it? I'm intrigued. How am I being inconsistent,
exactly? You know how I do try not to be inconsistent or illogical.

Like I just said *right there*, as long as you're only talking about
how it affects your opinion of him as a writer as specifically relates
to the latter books, that's fine.

Ahh, so "sweeping stuff about his plot points" actually meant "books 1-6 were pretty good though". Sorry I guess it must have been Australian slang or summat.

Post by Chucky @ Work
See, to me, a judgement of "not a great writer" needs to apply to all
his stuff. Otherwise, he's just a great writer who slipped up in this
case, and did something not-so-great. Doesn't make him a hack.

That would certainly be fair enough.

Post by Chucky @ Work
So yeah, it does seem like you're letting this glitch in the writing
(specifically as relates to how it made you be wrong about a theory
you had) colour your opinion of whether or not this writer's any good,
in a rather sweeping way. That's according to *my* understanding of
what someone means when they say they think an author isn't that
great. Which clearly differs from yours in this case. Which in turn
made it seem a bit extreme to me, and makes me question your vaunted
objectivity.

Well, now keep in mind the so-called setup for Taimandred was not just book 6, but 4-6 at least...so now we've got to include THOSE in the negative view if I'm going this route.

So he wrote a good trilogy. But THEN I have to get into his annoying characterizations and repetitiveness, particularly from the women in the trilogy in question. Plus, as I believe I pointed out a long time ago, the many many times he uses almost the exact same old saw, in those first "great" books. Saws like: "...and the truth an Aes Sedai...", or "the horse looked like a pony with Loail riding it" and so on.

Not as bad as the later stuff, but as I said before, puts him much farther down on the list of authors in term of quality of writing, and I haven't taken the time to:
a. Write out that entire list from my POV
or
b. Decide where good ends and bad begins

So again th;dt.

Post by Chucky @ Work
Which is fine, if you want to join me in reality and admit that you
don't *have* an objective view because *this is entirely subjective*.
So try doing that.

Well, that's your subjective view on it.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
Actually, I rather like *this* the more I "thnik" about it too. Jordan
using the Dark One to break the fourth wall and have a good chortle,
not only because things were going swimmingly in the story, but
because he was enjoying a nice mind-fuck into the bargain. Moo ha ha.

So just allow it!

Oh, I do. What gave you the impression that I wasn't? Could it be the
fact that you aren't paying much attention?

You know how I have to make you confirm things. It's a personalized version of confirmation bias. I'm biased towards seeking confirmation.

I blame the military. To this DAY I am irritated when I ask someone to do something (over whom I have temporary authority) and they just start doing stuff without saying anything.

I know, it's weird. Military.

Oh and stop it with the attention thing or I'll make a "Les Whynin...More Thniking" joke.

But maybe you would like that.

-Aaron

[Chucky & Janica]

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
Like I just said *right there*, as long as you're only talking about
how it affects your opinion of him as a writer as specifically relates
to the latter books, that's fine.

Ahh, so "sweeping stuff about his plot points"
actually meant "books 1-6 were pretty good
though". Sorry I guess it must have been
Australian slang or summat.

It just seemed to me that I was saying Jordan was a good writer, but
not a great writer of mystery or intrigue or these little clue-piecing
things - and that means across the board, not just in this one
book-spanning Demandred-case. And I thought that was what you were
saying too, thus we were in agreement.

But now it seems like you were only talking about your opinion
specifically of the way he handled this one particular plot-thread. So
this means either you consider Jordan to be otherwise OK (aside from
the little things you list below), or you have let this one
plot-thread colour your view of his talent as a writer across the
board.

The latter seems unreasonable. The former I guess is OK, but this is
the first sign I really saw that we were talking about a particular
facet of the story, rather than the series as a whole (well, insofar
as we were talking about the intrigue-element of his writing, *that*
was a facet ... but it seems you were being even more specific and I
didn't expect that).

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
See, to me, a judgement of "not a great writer" needs to apply to all
his stuff. Otherwise, he's just a great writer who slipped up in this
case, and did something not-so-great. Doesn't make him a hack.

That would certainly be fair enough.

Right.

Post by Aaron
Well, now keep in mind the so-called setup
for Taimandred was not just book 6, but
4-6 at least...so now we've got to include
THOSE in the negative view if I'm going this
route.

Uh huh. Colour me dubious and let's move on.

Post by Aaron
So he wrote a good trilogy. But THEN I
have to get into his annoying characterizations
and repetitiveness, particularly from the
women in the trilogy in question. Plus, as I
believe I pointed out a long time ago, the
many many times he uses almost the exact
same old saw, in those first "great" books.
Saws like: "...and the truth an Aes
Sedai...", or "the horse looked like a pony
with Loail riding it" and so on.

Yep, exactly. Just the sorts of things I was taking into account (and
assumed you were) when we agreed on our "not a great writer, has his
issues" judgement.

Post by Aaron
Not as bad as the later stuff, but as I said
before, puts him much farther down on the
list of authors in term of quality of writing,
a. Write out that entire list from my POV
or
b. Decide where good ends and bad begins
So again th;dt.

Right.

Post by Aaron
I blame the military. To this DAY I am
irritated when I ask someone to do
something (over whom I have temporary
authority) and they just start doing
stuff without saying anything.
I know, it's weird. Military.

Well, it'd be nice to know if the thing was getting done or if your
request had even been heard.

Post by Aaron
Oh and stop it with the attention thing
or I'll make a "Les Whynin...More Thniking"
joke.
But maybe you would like that.

You'll never know unless you start paying attention.




C&J

[Aaron]

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
Always funny considering I could have just written it the
nice way from the start.

I like it, makes the conversation have a natural flow. You know, like
the man-strual cycle it is.

LOL

I had a one-off pun there, but I lost it. Tired.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
I don't accept this was the case at the end of book 6.

Sure, I understand and appreciate that position. Of course book 6 gave
you (as a Taimandred Theorist) that sequence of "clues" and you felt
good about putting them together and felt very strongly that you were
*meant* to have put them together.

Right.

Post by Chucky @ Work
I disagree, of course. Actually the more I think about it, the more I
sort-of *like* the way Jordan dealt with Demandred in Lord of
Chaos.Still wasn't great, but from my point of view (as a hint to a
larger book-arching secret plotline rather than a clue to an identity
mystery that's self-contained right within that book) it's not
horrible.

No it wasn't horrible. It could have been written better given what was really going on, which WE only knew in hindsight (being charitable that HE already knew), but you know that's the sort of thing I like to nitpick.

I feel it's important to point things like that out because it is a sort of "bad writing" or "cheating" that can mislead. And if I'm going to be misled, do it well and air-tight please.

Mmmmmm, air-tight. Be right back....

Post by Chucky @ Work
Book 6 was the beginning of the downslide though, very much so. He
peaked around book 3 or 4, and by the time he got to book 7 he was
deep in the doldrums. So you're certainly on solid ground saying it
was badly done. It just ... I don't know, I guess if anything, it
strikes me as poor-quality writing in a completely different sense to
the poor quality we saw in those tortuous volumes 8 - 11. Maybe it was
clumsy, but it was still *dynamic clumsy*. And that, to me, suggested
he knew what he was doing there, and was enjoying getting from point A
to point ... uh, A-and-a-half.

OK, back. I'll spare you a description of what I was up to.

Agreed. Though in spite of it all, I thought book 6 was great.

Post by Chucky @ Work
Like David said, there are other examples of this. You can't afford to
write off some of the stuff Sanderson finished up as being completely
unplanned and unintended by Jordan. This was *his* story and I have to
give him his dues even though Sanderson did a fantastic job of
finishing it.

Oh I'm absolutely not claiming Shara was Sanderson's idea, not at all. Just not Jordan's idea in 1997 or whatever. Or, possibly not his idea way back then.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
It was more along the lines of "tee hee hee let them wonder
about THAT! Now, time for some more significant sniffing
from Nynaeve!"

This is good, this is healthy. We have moved from "I was right all
along and the people who disagreed with Taimandred were wrong and
Jordan was a lying cheating hack and after he changed the story I was
still right up to that point and right afterwards too because I
changed my theory and the people who disagreed with Taimandred were
only right in an accidental random way that doesn't count at that
point and up to that point they were still wrong, so 'wrong for the
first 8 books' and 'right for the last 6 books' adds up to a total
balance of being more wrong than right," to "I was wrong and the
people who disagreed with Taimandred were right, but my guess was
justified and I was let down by crappy writing."

I still feel that way, man, but I can let it go. I never thought that Taimandred HAD to be right, though. I just thought it WAS right. I'm a little surprised, but probably shouldn't be, that you thought I was in THAT camp.

In fact, that camp baffles me a little bit. I never even thought Ishydin HAD to be right, but even compared to Taimandred I was a hell of a lot surer of it.

Let's say, because I like numbers, I was 75% on Taimandred (whether it turned out that way or if he switched, let's collapse both of those options), and 95% on Moridin.

Puzzles me that anyone could be 100% on Taimandred, which is what I think you were saying before.

Post by Chucky @ Work
Kudos.

*accepts Kudos anyway*

Post by Chucky @ Work
And my condolences.

Many thanks.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
Maybe. But yeah, I'm not loving it. The plan, coupled with a good
solid start to the plan - that I can see.

Glad you're not loving it. You're at least conflicted over this
writing and that's all I could really hope for.

You did ask me to be objective, and while I maintain that this is not
possible when discussing a work of fiction, I thnik you meant "be fair
and open-minded", and so I am. I'm a little hurt at the implication
that I haven't been fair and open-minded all along, but no matter. I
can be fair and open-minded and still call people fuckwits.

You have hit upon both the right set of terms, and the issue I was having where I thought I needed to ask for those terms to apply to your response.

Because, honestly, what IS a fuckwit? Can you, fairly, call *anyone* a fuckwit? Or is it always going to be a bit unfair and closed-minded? ;D

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
With all that, it's not. But all that, for all we know, is YOU.

Again, flattered, but this wasn't even remotely as cool as what I
could come up with if I put a little time and thought into it.

Whoa calm down, Picasso. I only was agreeing it wasn't bad writing if all that was in the works. I didn't say it was the best you could do.

Post by Chucky @ Work
This
was just my immediate impression on reading the books, and an
off-the-top-of-my-head idea of how it would have gone - and how
readers were maybe intended to piece the timeline together.

Sure.

Post by Chucky @ Work
Beyond that, we get into authorial intent again so let's not
bother.What did Jordan *want* us to piece together in hindsight? What
did he have planned when he wrote books 3, 4, 5 and 6, that would only
come to fruition later in the saga?
Fair to say I subscribe to (and I think you would agree with)
Tolkien's idea that a reader gets out of a story what he brings into
it.

I guess. I do try to be objective....

Post by Chucky @ Work
I saw the above. You saw a crappy bit of writing that misled you in
book 6, and a reasonable retcon of some sort in book 14 that had
dubious connectivity to the aforementioned crappy writing. Near as I
can guess. So be it.

...which RJ may well have planned out a decade ago or more, I'm willing to admit that much.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
And maybe, much later, he got there in his mind. Or maybe
he had it planned all along because he's a great writer. Oh
wait! We already handled our thoughts on that final possibility.

Yeah, don't be trying to toss out a possibility based on a sweeping
generalisation we agreed on regarding his writing. He was still more
than capable of planning something like this and it wouldn't take a
great writer. It wouldn't even take a great *mystery or intrigue
writer* which (to remind you) was what I *actually* said he wasn't, in
my view.

Right, right.

Post by Chucky @ Work
Heck, he was still more than capable of *greatness*, in some elements
of the story. And he was more than capable of clumsiness, ambiguity,
and relentless tedium. That shit is completely subjective.

LOL

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
So, cool element or not, there couldn't logically have been
anything to evil-laugh over at the end of book 6. Not any
more than the goings-ons with Taim and the Black Tower.

Disagree.

Well, fair enough, there could have been SOME. Possibly maybe.

And given what we now know about the Dark One and his motivations and
essence (which in turn we sort of have to assume Jordan had at least
somewhat in mind all along), who's to say what that laugh really
meant?

It meant nice work doing what we just saw you doing, damnit!

Post by Chucky @ Work
Suffice it to say, at the time I don't (didn't) think Taim's
activities warranted it, and in retrospect they obviously didn't.

Well, in final final retrospect sure, but they looked really, REALLY fucking bleak for a long time.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
But the bookending is what really pisses me off. At BEST it's
a red herring for Taimandred (not sure if you have already
agreed with that being a possible intent of RJ with
Demandred, but I think many have). And that's being
incredibly charitable.

The "have I not done well" and the laugh? No, I rejected this as
Taimandred evidence and I obviously still do, since it turns out it
wasn't. Sorry.

Whoa. I wrote "red herring". That means meant to mislead.
Does that always imply it's good evidence? If so, I
misunderstand the term.

I'm not understanding what you mean by "a red herring for Taimandred".
Do you mean it was intended to mislead people *away* from thinking
Taimandred was a thing? Or do you mean it was intended to mislead
people *into* thinking Taimandred was a thing? I'm assuming the
latter.

Right. And then there's of course the question of "intention" vs. "function" which leads us right back to the "RJ lied" territory we've agreed to avoid. But surely you follow.

Post by Chucky @ Work
What I'm saying is, I didn't consider it as pointing the reader
towards Taimandred. Even if you think it was. Even if it *was*. As I
say below.

I got that.

Post by Chucky @ Work
Not sure where this "always ... good evidence" set of requirements
came in. That looks like planted evidence to me, officer.

Dude I'm just adding an adjective. I said "red herring". You said "not evidence". It *is* evidence, in my opinion, so I'm trying to compromise with you that it's not "good evidence". In which case, our compromised position leads to the discussion of whether a "red herring" requires "good evidence" or JUST evidence.

See? I'm not trying to play games, I'm trying to talk the subject fully out.

The way I suggested I might not understand what "red herring" means proves I wasn't trying to play "gotcha" with you, so calm down Sarah Palin.

I'm liking the nicknames in this post, for some reason.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
I do not accept, unless you swear on your skill as a writer,
that it is good writing to introduce a new character (heard of
but unseen), talking to the big boss, at the start of a book.
Then, a bunch of shit happens, and that new character,
at the end of the book, asks the fucking big boss if he's
done well. And the boss seems to agree.

If it makes a bunch of people think it was that character doing the
bunch of shit, and it turns out it wasn't, then sure. It's fucking
awesome writing. Hats off to the big man.

So it was a red herring then.

*shrug* I don't know whether it was or not, really. I know I didn't
really take it as one. And it seems you and some other Taimandred
Theorists did. So was it, or not?

Yeah. It was. Or he's an EVEN WORSE writer than we've been agreeing to.

If that scene with the DO wasn't meant to mislead some of us into trying to figure out if we'd seen Demandred in action, and some subset of that to Taim, then it was TERRIBLE writing.

But I don't believe that for a second. And Taimandred doesn't EVER have to have been RJ's plan for you to agree that he was trying to get some of his readers out looking for Demandred in book 6. Surely you can allow that, yonor?

Post by Chucky @ Work
That's the great thing about subjective opinion. To you it was a red
herring. To me it wasn't. What did the author intend? Who cares? Maybe
he too was just letting the Lord of Chaos rule. Ever think of that?

Never crossed my mind....

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
You're enjoying it because of the whole Taimandretard debacle and
your role in it. You're relishing the end result which may or may not
have been intentional. Just as I suggested at the end of my
comment.
That does NOT make this good writing.

Of course not, from your point of view.

I think I just made a statement you can agree with, dude. It doesn't make this GOOD writing. I didn't say it made it BAD writing. Fair and open-minded, come on now!

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
Could have been done better, of course. This is Jordan we're talking
about. But yeah. It was great. Gave me a laugh. Since by this stage we
were settling into what was obviously going to be a *really* long
series, I didn't see the point in introducing a mystery and solving it
in the one book. I wanted a book-spanning arc, and I got one. The
*alternative* would have been crappy writing (not to mention
unimaginative), to me. Not what we got.

All right.

I do feel that the above is one of the most important points I made in
explaining my position on this. And I appreciate you getting me to
think about it. Who would have thought it, for such an old and tired
subject?

You are welcome. It is my particular genius...the rehash epiphany.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
How objective do you want me to be? I'm not mocking now. But I fail to
see how saying "yeah, that's really dumb, it must mean the Taimandred
Theory was right up to and beyond that point" is objective.

You were definitely mocking in your head.

I was definitely mocking out loud. When I said "I'm not mocking now",
though, I meant it. If I was mocking in my head, I'd still be writing
it down here, you should know that.

It was all in one reply from you, the "I'm not mocking" and the "now I'm totally mocking".

-Aaron

[Chucky @ Work]

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
I like it, makes the conversation have a natural flow. You know, like
the man-strual cycle it is.

LOL
I had a one-off pun there, but I lost it. Tired.

You're having a heavy he-riod?

Post by Aaron
No it wasn't horrible. It could have been written better given
what was really going on, which WE only knew in hindsight
(being charitable that HE already knew), but you know
that's the sort of thing I like to nitpick.
I feel it's important to point things like that out because it is
a sort of "bad writing" or "cheating" that can mislead. And
if I'm going to be misled, do it well and air-tight please.

I'm yet to see any real evidence that it wasn't airtight. Aside from
this "we didn't know what Demandred was doing" thing, which I'm having
a hard time seeing as a valid objection.

Post by Aaron
Oh I'm absolutely not claiming Shara was Sanderson's
idea, not at all. Just not Jordan's idea in 1997 or
whatever. Or, possibly not his idea way back then.

Sure. No real evidence for this claim, though, either. So best to keep
it as a "feeling you have", that way we're fine.

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
You did ask me to be objective, and while I maintain that this is not
possible when discussing a work of fiction, I thnik you meant "be fair
and open-minded", and so I am. I'm a little hurt at the implication
that I haven't been fair and open-minded all along, but no matter. I
can be fair and open-minded and still call people fuckwits.

You have hit upon both the right set of terms, and the issue I was
having where I thought I needed to ask for those terms to
apply to your response.
Because, honestly, what IS a fuckwit? Can you, fairly, call
*anyone* a fuckwit? Or is it always going to be a bit unfair
and closed-minded? ;D

Yes, I can.

And no, it's not.

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
With all that, it's not. But all that, for all we know, is YOU.

Again, flattered, but this wasn't even remotely as cool as what I
could come up with if I put a little time and thought into it.

Whoa calm down, Picasso. I only was agreeing it wasn't
bad writing if all that was in the works. I didn't say it was
the best you could do.

I didn't say you did. I was just offering that particular little bit
of self-horn-blowy free of charge.

But the basic summary I did provide, yes, my implication (and feeling)
was that all that was in the works. I reject the idea that all of that
was *me*.

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
I saw the above. You saw a crappy bit of writing that misled you in
book 6, and a reasonable retcon of some sort in book 14 that had
dubious connectivity to the aforementioned crappy writing. Near as I
can guess. So be it.

...which RJ may well have planned out a decade ago or more, I'm
willing to admit that much.

Excellent! You'll join me in "fair and open-minded" yet, since
"objective" is the wrong destination so you're obviously going to be
delayed. I have, as you can see, set up a folding lawn-chair for you.

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
Suffice it to say, at the time I don't (didn't) think Taim's
activities warranted it, and in retrospect they obviously didn't.

Well, in final final retrospect sure, but they looked really, REALLY
fucking bleak for a long time.

Not to me, which is why I said * at the time I don't (didn't) think
Taim's activities warranted it*, as well as in retrospect. And not to
various others, either. That's all.

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
*shrug* I don't know whether it was or not, really. I know I didn't
really take it as one. And it seems you and some other Taimandred
Theorists did. So was it, or not?

Yeah. It was. Or he's an EVEN WORSE writer than we've been agreeing to.
If that scene with the DO wasn't meant to mislead some of us into
trying to figure out if we'd seen Demandred in action, and some subset
of that to Taim, then it was TERRIBLE writing.
But I don't believe that for a second.

Okay. So then, as you said, we go into the "was it a red herring
because of Jordan's 20-Year Plan, or was it a red herring because he's
a hideous hackey lying liar?".

Or, to be more specific, *you* go. I stay here and watch without much
interest.

Post by Aaron
And Taimandred doesn't EVER have to have been RJ's plan for you
to agree that he was trying to get some of his readers out looking
for Demandred in book 6. Surely you can allow that, yonor?

Sure. Uh, putting Demandred in the prologue and giving him mysterious
instructions would do that pretty nicely. Not sure why you'd even
bother asking that.

The fact that he did so, and then didn't have Demandred doing
anything, and then revisited at the end and made like Demandred had
done something, *doesn't necessarily make it bad writing*. Can be
quite the contrary, actually.

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
That does NOT make this good writing.

Of course not, from your point of view.

I think I just made a statement you can agree with, dude. It
doesn't make this GOOD writing. I didn't say it made it BAD writing.
Fair and open-minded, come on now!

Doesn't make it good, doesn't make it bad. I am leaning towards good
and you are leaning towards bad. Those are our points of view. There
is no new information here.

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
How objective do you want me to be? I'm not mocking now.

It was all in one reply from you, the "I'm not mocking" and the "now I'm totally mocking".

Really? Because when I said the above, I went through that post and
made pretty sure I wasn't saying anything mocking, because I knew you
were on the prowl with your barrel-scraper.

You may be confused by the fact that I admitted to mocking in the past
(would be pretty stupid of me to deny *that*), at the same time as I
was claiming I was not mocking in the present.

Not complicated, chief.




***@w

[Aaron]

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
I like it, makes the conversation have a natural flow. You know, like
the man-strual cycle it is.

LOL
I had a one-off pun there, but I lost it. Tired.

You're having a heavy he-riod?

no no, that wasn't it...still using "men" I think...damnit.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
No it wasn't horrible. It could have been written better given
what was really going on, which WE only knew in hindsight
(being charitable that HE already knew), but you know
that's the sort of thing I like to nitpick.
I feel it's important to point things like that out because it is
a sort of "bad writing" or "cheating" that can mislead. And
if I'm going to be misled, do it well and air-tight please.

I'm yet to see any real evidence that it wasn't airtight. Aside from
this "we didn't know what Demandred was doing" thing, which I'm having
a hard time seeing as a valid objection.

And the noses. Don't forget the noses.

And the general feeling. We have feelings too! And the excessive frustration over Taimandred questions, from RJ.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
Oh I'm absolutely not claiming Shara was Sanderson's
idea, not at all. Just not Jordan's idea in 1997 or
whatever. Or, possibly not his idea way back then.

Sure. No real evidence for this claim, though, either. So best to keep
it as a "feeling you have", that way we're fine.

Sure. But that's where I've been coming from, is all.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
You did ask me to be objective, and while I maintain that this is not
possible when discussing a work of fiction, I thnik you meant "be fair
and open-minded", and so I am. I'm a little hurt at the implication
that I haven't been fair and open-minded all along, but no matter. I
can be fair and open-minded and still call people fuckwits.

You have hit upon both the right set of terms, and the issue I was
having where I thought I needed to ask for those terms to
apply to your response.
Because, honestly, what IS a fuckwit? Can you, fairly, call
*anyone* a fuckwit? Or is it always going to be a bit unfair
and closed-minded? ;D

Yes, I can.

Look I know you think you--

Post by Chucky @ Work
And no, it's not.

Well that's hardly fair.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
With all that, it's not. But all that, for all we know, is YOU.

Again, flattered, but this wasn't even remotely as cool as what I
could come up with if I put a little time and thought into it.

Whoa calm down, Picasso. I only was agreeing it wasn't
bad writing if all that was in the works. I didn't say it was
the best you could do.

I didn't say you did. I was just offering that particular little bit
of self-horn-blowy free of charge.

Just thought I'd underline it.

Post by Chucky @ Work
But the basic summary I did provide, yes, my implication (and feeling)
was that all that was in the works. I reject the idea that all of that
was *me*.

Well, no probably not all of it. The questions really are more of "who" and "how much" and "when". Not "if".

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
I saw the above. You saw a crappy bit of writing that misled you in
book 6, and a reasonable retcon of some sort in book 14 that had
dubious connectivity to the aforementioned crappy writing. Near as I
can guess. So be it.

...which RJ may well have planned out a decade ago or more, I'm
willing to admit that much.

Excellent! You'll join me in "fair and open-minded" yet, since
"objective" is the wrong destination so you're obviously going to be
delayed. I have, as you can see, set up a folding lawn-chair for you.

You recall how this worked out last time, right?

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
Suffice it to say, at the time I don't (didn't) think Taim's
activities warranted it, and in retrospect they obviously didn't.

Well, in final final retrospect sure, but they looked really, REALLY
fucking bleak for a long time.

Not to me, which is why I said * at the time I don't (didn't) think
Taim's activities warranted it*, as well as in retrospect. And not to
various others, either. That's all.

OK so let me get this straight. Taim converting a major portion of the Black Tower, and a bunch of Aes Sedai as well, to the Dark One...was...NOT "really, really fucking bleak" to you?

What, too many really's or something? How about "really fucking bleak"? How about "fucking bleak"? "Really bleak"? Plain old "bleak"?

How was this not a big deal to you?

It was those very channelers whose contribution could have, if well written, created enough balefire to end the last battle and everything else as I complained way back in my original book critique thread.

But, totally not a big deal, minimal bleakness I guess.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
*shrug* I don't know whether it was or not, really. I know I didn't
really take it as one. And it seems you and some other Taimandred
Theorists did. So was it, or not?

Yeah. It was. Or he's an EVEN WORSE writer than we've been agreeing to.
If that scene with the DO wasn't meant to mislead some of us into
trying to figure out if we'd seen Demandred in action, and some subset
of that to Taim, then it was TERRIBLE writing.
But I don't believe that for a second.

Okay. So then, as you said, we go into the "was it a red herring
because of Jordan's 20-Year Plan, or was it a red herring because he's
a hideous hackey lying liar?".
Or, to be more specific, *you* go. I stay here and watch without much
interest.

No, let's just agree it's a red herring. To some degree or other.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
And Taimandred doesn't EVER have to have been RJ's plan for you
to agree that he was trying to get some of his readers out looking
for Demandred in book 6. Surely you can allow that, yonor?

Sure. Uh, putting Demandred in the prologue and giving him mysterious
instructions would do that pretty nicely. Not sure why you'd even
bother asking that.

So you're not a fan of the Robot Series by Asimov after all?

Asking obvious questions is a first step in an investigation. Which never you doubt, you are under ;D

Rather, RJ is under.

Post by Chucky @ Work
The fact that he did so, and then didn't have Demandred doing
anything, and then revisited at the end and made like Demandred had
done something, *doesn't necessarily make it bad writing*. Can be
quite the contrary, actually.

Can be, as I admitted.

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
How objective do you want me to be? I'm not mocking now.

It was all in one reply from you, the "I'm not mocking" and the "now
I'm totally mocking".

Really? Because when I said the above, I went through that post and
made pretty sure I wasn't saying anything mocking, because I knew you
were on the prowl with your barrel-scraper.
You may be confused by the fact that I admitted to mocking in the past
(would be pretty stupid of me to deny *that*), at the same time as I
was claiming I was not mocking in the present.
Not complicated, chief.

All right all right stop mocking me.

-Aaron

[Chucky & Janica]

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
I'm yet to see any real evidence that it wasn't airtight. Aside from
this "we didn't know what Demandred was doing" thing, which I'm having
a hard time seeing as a valid objection.

And the noses. Don't forget the noses.
And the general feeling. We have feelings too!

Sure you do.

Post by Aaron
And the excessive frustration over Taimandred
questions, from RJ.

The what now?

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
Because, honestly, what IS a fuckwit? Can you, fairly, call
*anyone* a fuckwit? Or is it always going to be a bit unfair
and closed-minded? ;D

Yes, I can.

Look I know you think you--

Post by Chucky @ Work
And no, it's not.

Well that's hardly fair.

nObVious: Yes, it is.

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
Excellent! You'll join me in "fair and open-minded" yet, since
"objective" is the wrong destination so you're obviously going to be
delayed. I have, as you can see, set up a folding lawn-chair for you.

You recall how this worked out last time, right?

Well for all concerned?

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
Well, in final final retrospect sure, but they looked really, REALLY
fucking bleak for a long time.

Not to me, which is why I said * at the time I don't (didn't) think
Taim's activities warranted it*, as well as in retrospect. And not to
various others, either. That's all.

OK so let me get this straight. Taim converting
a major portion of the Black Tower, and a bunch
of Aes Sedai as well, to the Dark One...was...
NOT "really, really fucking bleak" to you?

He only did this in the last couple of books. He certainly didn't do
it in Lord of Chaos, which was what, I remind you, you were talking
about.

Post by Aaron
What, too many really's or something? How
about "really fucking bleak"? How about
"fucking bleak"? "Really bleak"? Plain old
"bleak"?

Nope. Just dull, really.

Post by Aaron
How was this not a big deal to you?

Taim and the Black Tower were moderately interesting and I was looking
forward to seeing how he turned out to be bad news. I don't see what
that has to do with Demandred. If Demandred was meant to be Taim
showing off how he let the Lord of Chaos rule at the end of that book,
it was lame.

Post by Aaron
It was those very channelers whose contribution
could have, if well written, created enough
balefire to end the last battle and everything
else as I complained way back in my original book
critique thread.

Since it was Demandred who was asked whether he would unleash balefire
ohhh I see, is that why you thought he was Taim? Because Taim knew
some channelers and channelers can make balefire and ... something
something, Taimandred?

Post by Aaron
But, totally not a big deal, minimal bleakness
I guess.

Correct.

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron
It was all in one reply from you, the "I'm not mocking" and the "now
I'm totally mocking".

Really? Because when I said the above, I went through that post and
made pretty sure I wasn't saying anything mocking, because I knew you
were on the prowl with your barrel-scraper.
You may be confused by the fact that I admitted to mocking in the past
(would be pretty stupid of me to deny *that*), at the same time as I
was claiming I was not mocking in the present.
Not complicated, chief.

All right all right stop mocking me.

Make me!




C&J