Wait

A cuendillar cannon CAN'T be reshaped in any way after the first testing,
period. It's a pretty good idea, but you DO need those precise measurements,
rather desperately, and the testing involved, and for the thing to survive
the testing without changing its shape you do need the quality metal, and
the iron they have doesn't seem to cut it for that.

So maybe once they've got a perfect cannon, they could try making an EXACT
iron duplicate of it (there's gotta be weaves for that, right?), then
cuendillarizing it. But first you need the perfect cannon.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Because, you know, fuck the pointless cannons off entirely and just
kill a million Trollocs with a single swipe of the hand using the One
Power. I don't know.

Dave "and there's always that, yeah - but you can make more cannons a lot
faster than you can make more high-powered One Power users. Unless the Pattern
takes a hand and just empowers everyone in your village while they're not
looking or something" DeLaney

--
\/David DeLaney posting from ***@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom

2011-01-12 06:55:36 UTC

There wouldn't be any need to survive the testing without changing its
shape if the thing was made of cuendillar, because it would keep its
shape no matter what. And if it fails the first test-firing (reasons a
cannon might fail this are many, but if it just doesn't fire that's
the only drawback, there's no chance of it exploding - like I said,
where a normal cannon might explode rather than firing because of a
flaw in the barrel, a cuendillar cannon will just fire because the
muzzle is the point of least resistance), they're only out a bit of
lumpy-arsed scrap iron. They could make them as thin as tissue paper
and turning them into cuendillar would make them invincible. Just get
a sheet of iron and roll it into a tube. Cannon. Once you have
invincible materials, a lot of the difficulty in making the cannon
just goes away.

After a few batches, I'm sure they would hammer out what shape and
size and smoothness they needed to be internally. And Power-forging
makes this even easier, as you said. I wonder if the Kin would object
to making weapons to fight the Shadow this way? Maybe they could be in
charge of the metamorphosis process ... or do you need to be as
powerful as Egwene and Talented in metals the way she is?

That might be a legitimate reason they haven't done this, if Egwene is
the only person who can make cuendillar. But I'm pretty sure there are
other women who can do it.

Post by David DeLaney
So maybe once they've got a perfect cannon, they could try making an EXACT
iron duplicate of it (there's gotta be weaves for that, right?), then
cuendillarizing it. But first you need the perfect cannon.

Not really. You just need one that can shoot. And even that can be
tested after the metamorphosis process, so its instabilities and weak
points are no longer valid.

Wasn't the whole super-gun issue rendered moot because of the massive
damage to the barrel that would occur with every firing? Cuendillar
shits all over that idea too.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Because, you know, fuck the pointless cannons off entirely and just
kill a million Trollocs with a single swipe of the hand using the One
Power. I don't know.

Activate the Slayer Army. Oh wait, that's Buffy.

***@w
--
The Slayer Reborn.

Aaron

2011-01-12 14:36:53 UTC

There wouldn't be any need to survive the testing without changing its
shape if the thing was made of cuendillar, because it would keep its
shape no matter what. And if it fails the first test-firing (reasons a
cannon might fail this are many, but if it just doesn't fire that's
the only drawback, there's no chance of it exploding - like I said,
where a normal cannon might explode rather than firing because of a
flaw in the barrel, a cuendillar cannon will just fire because the
muzzle is the point of least resistance), they're only out a bit of
lumpy-arsed scrap iron. They could make them as thin as tissue paper
and turning them into cuendillar would make them invincible. Just get
a sheet of iron and roll it into a tube. Cannon. Once you have
invincible materials, a lot of the difficulty in making the cannon
just goes away.
After a few batches, I'm sure they would hammer out what shape and
size and smoothness they needed to be internally. And Power-forging
makes this even easier, as you said. I wonder if the Kin would object
to making weapons to fight the Shadow this way? Maybe they could be in
charge of the metamorphosis process ... or do you need to be as
powerful as Egwene and Talented in metals the way she is?
That might be a legitimate reason they haven't done this, if Egwene is
the only person who can make cuendillar. But I'm pretty sure there are
other women who can do it.

Not really. You just need one that can shoot. And even that can be
tested after the metamorphosis process, so its instabilities and weak
points are no longer valid.
Wasn't the whole super-gun issue rendered moot because of the massive
damage to the barrel that would occur with every firing? Cuendillar
shits all over that idea too.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Because, you know, fuck the pointless cannons off entirely and just
kill a million Trollocs with a single swipe of the hand using the One
Power. I don't know.

Activate the Slayer Army. Oh wait, that's Buffy.
--
The Slayer Reborn.

Elayne wasn't part of the whole cuendillar team Egwene had going.
That's the primary reason it wouldn't have occurred to her. That, and
she's a brainless bimbo. So she didn't think outside of the box Mat
handed her.

And yes, there were others (hence "cuendillar team"), but Egwene was
the best. I would think the weight of cuendillar would make this
impractical. The cannon would bog down much easier, be harder to move
and operate, and ditto the cannonball.

-Aaron

Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom

2011-01-13 08:21:12 UTC

Post by Aaron
Elayne wasn't part of the whole cuendillar team Egwene had going.

I'm still going to assume she knows that Egwene rediscovered this art.
They're meeting and talking with each other a lot, and Elayne knew
Egwene had Tar Valon under siege.

Post by Aaron
That's the primary reason it wouldn't have occurred to her. That, and
she's a brainless bimbo. So she didn't think outside of the box Mat
handed her.

That, I can't argue against. It was sort of my point. Either Sanderson
dropped the ball, or Elayne is a giant dumbass and I expect somebody
to at least test a cuendillar cannon in the next book.

Of course, on the other hand we don't have many pages left so it might
not be worth bothering with. Unless in the sack of Andor the
Darkfriends get hold of the cannons, so both sides have them. Then
cuendillar will offer a big advantage that the good guys might need.

All this *if* cannons are all they're cracked up to be, which I still
maintain they're really not, in a world where the One Power can be
used for so many things. Rarity of channelers be damned.

Post by Aaron
And yes, there were others (hence "cuendillar team"), but Egwene was
the best. I would think the weight of cuendillar would make this
impractical. The cannon would bog down much easier, be harder to move
and operate, and ditto the cannonball.

Sorry, was cuendillar heavier than iron? I don't remember that ever
being said.

Also, these are not currently very mobile cannons, so that's not
really an issue even if the weight is greater. It took quite a long
time for the cannon to go mobile, and I don't think Andor is there
yet.

Also, cannons are really difficult to bog down if you have a Kinswoman
carrying it with a weave of Air. In fact, leave the cannon and just
use the Kinswoman. Uh, as a cannon. Or something.

***@w
--
Still, it might just be a case of throwing them onto a wagon and going
"giddyup."

Aaron

2011-01-13 17:55:16 UTC

Post by Aaron
Elayne wasn't part of the whole cuendillar team Egwene had going.

I'm still going to assume she knows that Egwene rediscovered this art.
They're meeting and talking with each other a lot, and Elayne knew
Egwene had Tar Valon under siege.

How much would Egwene have seen fit to relate? TWOT folks aren't
particularly good at sharing, off-camera, IIRC.

Post by Aaron
That's the primary reason it wouldn't have occurred to her. That, and
she's a brainless bimbo. So she didn't think outside of the box Mat
handed her.

That, I can't argue against. It was sort of my point. Either Sanderson
dropped the ball, or Elayne is a giant dumbass and I expect somebody
to at least test a cuendillar cannon in the next book.
Of course, on the other hand we don't have many pages left so it might
not be worth bothering with. Unless in the sack of Andor the
Darkfriends get hold of the cannons, so both sides have them. Then
cuendillar will offer a big advantage that the good guys might need.
All this *if* cannons are all they're cracked up to be, which I still
maintain they're really not, in a world where the One Power can be
used for so many things. Rarity of channelers be damned.

Right. *If* the one Power is still available...

*strokes chin thoughtfully and sagely*

Sorry, was cuendillar heavier than iron? I don't remember that ever
being said.

It's heavier than armor. That was surely mentioned. Much heavier. So.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Also, these are not currently very mobile cannons, so that's not
really an issue even if the weight is greater. It took quite a long
time for the cannon to go mobile, and I don't think Andor is there
yet.
Also, cannons are really difficult to bog down if you have a Kinswoman
carrying it with a weave of Air. In fact, leave the cannon and just
use the Kinswoman. Uh, as a cannon. Or something.

But that is not how they are going to be employed, if I read
correctly.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
--
Still, it might just be a case of throwing them onto a wagon and going
"giddyup."

-Aaron

Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom

2011-01-14 08:07:48 UTC

Post by Aaron
Elayne wasn't part of the whole cuendillar team Egwene had going.

I'm still going to assume she knows that Egwene rediscovered this art.
They're meeting and talking with each other a lot, and Elayne knew
Egwene had Tar Valon under siege.

How much would Egwene have seen fit to relate? TWOT folks aren't
particularly good at sharing, off-camera, IIRC.

Fair enough. All I have to go on is a sort of feeling that a new weave
capable of turning iron to cuendillar, Egwene would have shared - at
least with her bosom buddies.

But it's my feeling against twelve books of these guys not talking to
each other. There were parts of this book where I still found myself
amazed and disgusted that X person didn't know that Y person had done
Z. So okay, I'll concede this.

How about I expand my original point from "why the fuck didn't Elayne
try cuendillar cannons?" to "why the fuck didn't Elayne try cuendillar
cannons, and if she doesn't know about cuendillar what the fuck is
wrong with Egwene?" ...?

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
All this *if* cannons are all they're cracked up to be, which I still
maintain they're really not, in a world where the One Power can be
used for so many things. Rarity of channelers be damned.

Right. *If* the one Power is still available...

I liked the flash-forwards Aviendha had about her kids and grandkids,
who were basically born holding the One Power and held it ever since.

Goes back (to borrow from our e-mail discussions) to Dune, though.
Wasn't mutant-emperor Paul spice-addled and weird in a similar way?

Post by Aaron
*strokes chin thoughtfully and sagely*

*slaps hand away*

That tickles.

Sorry, was cuendillar heavier than iron? I don't remember that ever
being said.

It's heavier than armor. That was surely mentioned. Much heavier. So.

It was? I don't remember this ever being mentioned.

But that is not how they are going to be employed, if I read
correctly.

The cannons or the Kin?

***@w
--
Giddyup.

Aaron

2011-01-14 21:22:27 UTC

Who the hell are you calling "tammi", bubba?

Post by Aaron
Elayne wasn't part of the whole cuendillar team Egwene had going.

I'm still going to assume she knows that Egwene rediscovered this art.
They're meeting and talking with each other a lot, and Elayne knew
Egwene had Tar Valon under siege.

How much would Egwene have seen fit to relate? TWOT folks aren't
particularly good at sharing, off-camera, IIRC.

Fair enough. All I have to go on is a sort of feeling that a new weave
capable of turning iron to cuendillar, Egwene would have shared - at
least with her bosom buddies.
But it's my feeling against twelve books of these guys not talking to
each other. There were parts of this book where I still found myself
amazed and disgusted that X person didn't know that Y person had done
Z. So okay, I'll concede this.
How about I expand my original point from "why the fuck didn't Elayne
try cuendillar cannons?" to "why the fuck didn't Elayne try cuendillar
cannons, and if she doesn't know about cuendillar what the fuck is
wrong with Egwene?" ...?

Works for me.

Right. *If* the one Power is still available...

I liked the flash-forwards Aviendha had about her kids and grandkids,
who were basically born holding the One Power and held it ever since.

That was freakay.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Goes back (to borrow from our e-mail discussions) to Dune, though.
Wasn't mutant-emperor Paul spice-addled and weird in a similar way?

Nope. His kids, sort of, and his sister, moreso. And less so, in a
different way.

Post by Aaron
*strokes chin thoughtfully and sagely*

*slaps hand away*
That tickles.

Aw, you know you like it.

Sorry, was cuendillar heavier than iron? I don't remember that ever
being said.

It's heavier than armor. That was surely mentioned. Much heavier. So.

It was? I don't remember this ever being mentioned.

Geezus! Your memory sucks, elephant or not.

Well, go back to...whichever book cuendillar was first discussed with
Moiraine, or Verin, I believe. Or just trust me. My memory never fails
me. Just others.

But that is not how they are going to be employed, if I read
correctly.

The cannons or the Kin?

Yes.

Think about it, you'll get it eventually.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
--
Giddyup.

-***@h

Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom

2011-01-18 12:57:04 UTC

Post by Aaron
Who the hell are you calling "tammi", bubba?

At 14, Tammi is too old for Mister C so I guess he cut her loose.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
How about I expand my original point from "why the fuck didn't Elayne
try cuendillar cannons?" to "why the fuck didn't Elayne try cuendillar
cannons, and if she doesn't know about cuendillar what the fuck is
wrong with Egwene?" ...?

Works for me.

Duly adjusted.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Goes back (to borrow from our e-mail discussions) to Dune, though.
Wasn't mutant-emperor Paul spice-addled and weird in a similar way?

Nope. His kids, sort of, and his sister, moreso. And less so, in a
different way.

Right, so sort of. And sort of not really.

Who knows, maybe another generation of super-channelers would turn
them into jumara.

Which is weirdly close to the Finnish word "jumala", meaning "God".

Hmm.

Post by Aaron
*strokes chin thoughtfully and sagely*

*slaps hand away*
That tickles.

Aw, you know you like it.

All the more reason to slap your hand away!

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Sorry, was cuendillar heavier than iron? I don't remember that ever
being said.

It's heavier than armor. That was surely mentioned. Much heavier. So.

It was? I don't remember this ever being mentioned.

Geezus! Your memory sucks, elephant or not.

Cite, or drop.

Post by Aaron
Well, go back to...whichever book cuendillar was first discussed with
Moiraine, or Verin, I believe. Or just trust me. My memory never fails
me. Just others.

I won't accept this until there's a quote to back you up. Sorry.

***@w
--
I would have thought Egwene's cuendillar-transmogrification would have
resulted in cuendillar that was markedly heavier than its source
material, if that was the way they were going to go with it.

Aaron

2011-01-18 18:32:02 UTC

Post by Aaron
Who the hell are you calling "tammi", bubba?

At 14, Tammi is too old for Mister C so I guess he cut her loose.

Works for me.

Duly adjusted.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Goes back (to borrow from our e-mail discussions) to Dune, though.
Wasn't mutant-emperor Paul spice-addled and weird in a similar way?

Nope. His kids, sort of, and his sister, moreso. And less so, in a
different way.

Right, so sort of. And sort of not really.
Who knows, maybe another generation of super-channelers would turn
them into jumara.
Which is weirdly close to the Finnish word "jumala", meaning "God".
Hmm.

Post by Aaron
*strokes chin thoughtfully and sagely*

*slaps hand away*
That tickles.

Aw, you know you like it.

All the more reason to slap your hand away!

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Sorry, was cuendillar heavier than iron? I don't remember that ever
being said.

It's heavier than armor. That was surely mentioned. Much heavier. So.

It was? I don't remember this ever being mentioned.

Geezus! Your memory sucks, elephant or not.

Cite, or drop.

Post by Aaron
Well, go back to...whichever book cuendillar was first discussed with
Moiraine, or Verin, I believe. Or just trust me. My memory never fails
me. Just others.

I won't accept this until there's a quote to back you up. Sorry.

Ahh, being a hard-ass, I see. Get off your duff, I have kids. Oh, ok.
Well we both have that excuse. I'll do my best, but I never forget
shit, and I never make it up (unless I want to).

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
--
I would have thought Egwene's cuendillar-transmogrification would have
resulted in cuendillar that was markedly heavier than its source
material, if that was the way they were going to go with it.

The harbor chain in Tar Valon? It WAS heavier than the metal it used
to be, and this was discussed. Surely you can look that one up, whilst
I look up the obscure armor one?

=D

-Aaron

Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom

2011-01-19 07:42:06 UTC

Post by Aaron
Well, go back to...whichever book cuendillar was first discussed with
Moiraine, or Verin, I believe. Or just trust me. My memory never fails
me. Just others.

I won't accept this until there's a quote to back you up. Sorry.

Ahh, being a hard-ass, I see. Get off your duff, I have kids. Oh, ok.
Well we both have that excuse. I'll do my best, but I never forget
shit, and I never make it up (unless I want to).

You never forget shit? What planet were you on while you and Shelob
and I were arguing about the Lord of the Rings stories a while ago and
you couldn't remember anything except the shit in the movies?

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
I would have thought Egwene's cuendillar-transmogrification would have
resulted in cuendillar that was markedly heavier than its source
material, if that was the way they were going to go with it.

The harbor chain in Tar Valon? It WAS heavier than the metal it used
to be, and this was discussed.

It was discussed that the interlocking pieces of anything Egwene turns
into cuendillar fuse together into one piece, even if they were
separate pieces in their original form. So the chain fused with its
links and the winding mechanisms, making it all one piece and
impossible to remove without tearing half the harbour defences apart.

Don't remember anything about it being heavier.

And like I think I already said, this doesn't really matter anyway,
because even if cuendillar is twice as heavy as iron, it's not going
to make a difference in a cannon. If you can move one cannon around,
you can move two cannons around. If you can move two cannons around,
you can move one cannon that's twice as heavy around.

Post by Aaron
Surely you can look that one up, whilst
I look up the obscure armor one?

Right. I'll go and sink my time into looking up your own points for
your own argument, in an attempt to prove myself wrong, while you sit
on your hairy arse and do fuck-all.

After I'm done looking for something that might not even be there -
and how long am I supposed to do *that* before concluding that I was
right? One, two, three months? - I'll tell you I couldn't find it, and
you'll accuse me of either not looking hard enough, or declare that I
did find it and that I am lying about not finding it for some petty
reason that only exists in your own head.

My crystal ball is really not selling this plan to me, chief.

***@w
--
"Hmm. It wasn't mentioned here ... maybe if I read the entire series
again and focus entirely on the weight of cuendillar, it'll be
mentioned in there somewhere. Sanders was so sure, and he never
forgets anything which is why I'm doing this research for him."

Aaron

2011-01-19 17:35:41 UTC

Ok, time to correct this injustice from your lazy ass. Especially
because you continue to insist on calling me "tammi".

Post by Aaron
Well, go back to...whichever book cuendillar was first discussed with
Moiraine, or Verin, I believe. Or just trust me. My memory never fails
me. Just others.

I won't accept this until there's a quote to back you up. Sorry.

Ahh, being a hard-ass, I see. Get off your duff, I have kids. Oh, ok.
Well we both have that excuse. I'll do my best, but I never forget
shit, and I never make it up (unless I want to).

Ahh, I see the elephantine memory is merely selective with you. As
with us all, I suppose.

A summary:

Read book once, 5 years before movies. Saw movies almost 10 times
before discussion. Discussion was about Ents in movie vs. Ents in book
vs. Ogier in TWOT. Given that all the characteristics of Tom
Bombadillo, the wild trees from the book, and Ents (such
characteristics as there were) from the book were ALL embodied in the
Ents from the movie, I think a touch of confusion is warranted on my
part. So what if I couldn't separate every goddamn Ent characteristic
from the movie into the disparate races?!

And I still never agreed about the treesinging bit.

And in case you didn't know, I haven't watched any WOT movie 10 times
through. But I have reread the books at least 6 times.

The harbor chain in Tar Valon? It WAS heavier than the metal it used
to be, and this was discussed.

To be continued.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
And like I think I already said, this doesn't really matter anyway,
because even if cuendillar is twice as heavy as iron, it's not going
to make a difference in a cannon. If you can move one cannon around,
you can move two cannons around. If you can move two cannons around,
you can move one cannon that's twice as heavy around.

Uhh, with twice as much effort, of course. The effort was part of
Mat's sale pitch.

Post by Aaron
Surely you can look that one up, whilst
I look up the obscure armor one?

That was an excellent explanation of why it's not worthwhile to prove
a negative. Thanks for that, good buddy.

Does curiousity (I'll be kind and not call it "intellectual") never
afflict you? If someone tells you about something that is foreign to
your world view, do you ALWAYS ask THEM to prove it? Or do you
sometimes look into it yourself?

See, cuz I understand if an adversary tells you something strange
(like, for example, the idiotic birther Republican idiot I work with)
about something and you are pretty sure it's wrong, yeah, you ask him
to back it up. But if a friendly person, a friend let's say since I
think we are, surprises you with what they think is fact, do you ever,
EVER, try and educate yourself? Or do you always ask THEM for the
cite?

Because this cite isn't any easier for me to find than you, yanno?

Yes, I understand the usenet rule regarding cites. I hate rules. Think
for yourself =D

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
--
"Hmm. It wasn't mentioned here ... maybe if I read the entire series
again and focus entirely on the weight of cuendillar, it'll be
mentioned in there somewhere. Sanders was so sure, and he never
forgets anything which is why I'm doing this research for him."

Goddamn it, don't call me "Sanders", Hindle! I told you, and everyone
on here, before, that I hate that thanks to my military time. Can you
cut down on the "Sanders" shit? It's not like we don't exchange long
emails at least twice a week, more if you're not being lazy. Call me
"Aaron". KTXBI

-Aaron

Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom

2011-01-20 13:41:16 UTC

Post by Aaron
Ok, time to correct this injustice from your lazy ass. Especially
because you continue to insist on calling me "tammi".

Well you got all crabby when I called you Sanders.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
You never forget shit? What planet were you on while you and Shelob
and I were arguing about the Lord of the Rings stories a while ago and
you couldn't remember anything except the shit in the movies?

So what if I couldn't separate every goddamn Ent characteristic
from the movie into the disparate races?!

So your memory failed you. That's all.

Post by Aaron
And I still never agreed about the treesinging bit.

I never really gave a crap. But you probably knew that, on account of
I seem to recall I was mainly in that debate to make random pointless
remarks and call people names. Like usual.

Post by Aaron
And in case you didn't know, I haven't watched any WOT movie 10 times
through. But I have reread the books at least 6 times.

Sweet. I think I've read them once. I freely confess that it's
probably time I did so again, if only for the sake of the final book.
Go out with a roar, you know?

Uhh, with twice as much effort, of course. The effort was part of
Mat's sale pitch.

Well, sure. If they're twice as heavy. I still don't think that's much
effort, considering the way they're using these cannons. And if we can
make cannons out of pottery or paper and then turn them into
cuendillar, then even this argument goes away. They'd be way lighter,
and invincible to boot.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Right. I'll go and sink my time into looking up your own points for
your own argument, in an attempt to prove myself wrong, while you sit
on your hairy arse and do fuck-all.
After I'm done looking for something that might not even be there -
and how long am I supposed to do *that* before concluding that I was
right? One, two, three months? - I'll tell you I couldn't find it, and
you'll accuse me of either not looking hard enough, or declare that I
did find it and that I am lying about not finding it for some petty
reason that only exists in your own head.
My crystal ball is really not selling this plan to me, chief.

That was an excellent explanation of why it's not worthwhile to prove
a negative. Thanks for that, good buddy.

Indeed.

Post by Aaron
Does curiousity (I'll be kind and not call it "intellectual") never
afflict you?

I have to admit, this is making me more and more curious. The more
wild stuff you seem to make up, the more tempted I am to check and see
if you *are* making it up.

I'll let you bristle about my accusation that you're making things up
in your own time. What I mean is, this is definitely interesting me
more. I admit I have a lot of Jordan apathy to chip away here.

Post by Aaron
If someone tells you about something that is foreign to
your world view, do you ALWAYS ask THEM to prove it? Or do you
sometimes look into it yourself?

Sometimes. I do expect them to be able to back up their beliefs
though.

Post by Aaron
See, cuz I understand if an adversary tells you something strange
(like, for example, the idiotic birther Republican idiot I work with)
about something and you are pretty sure it's wrong, yeah, you ask him
to back it up.

Right.

Post by Aaron
But if a friendly person, a friend let's say since I
think we are,

Quite so!

Post by Aaron
surprises you with what they think is fact, do you ever,
EVER, try and educate yourself? Or do you always ask THEM for the
cite?

In this case, you're saying an awful lot about cuendillar that I just
don't think is in the books. I have always been very interested in the
concept of cuendillar and its properties so I paid quite a lot of
attention and was quite excited when Egwene started experimenting with
it out of the blue.

So yeah, I would expect you to find quotes to back up your claims. I
certainly think I have more right to ask you to find them than you
have to ask me to find them for you. If I was going to do that, you
might as well not be here at all. I can have this debate with myself.

"Rand has purple hair."
"No wait, on page three of the first book it says he has red hair,
<quote>."

See?

Post by Aaron
Because this cite isn't any easier for me to find than you, yanno?

To hold my own in this debate, all that I need is no evidence that
cuendillar is heavier than iron (or heavier than its source material).
I have that now. So all I have to do is nothing at all.

To hold your own in this debate, you need to find evidence to back up
your claims.

But I am certainly interested now, and I have a bit of a babysitting
evening coming up, so I will look into it a bit. Crossroads of
Twilight, was it?

Post by Aaron
Yes, I understand the usenet rule regarding cites. I hate rules. Think
for yourself =D

I am thinking for myself. I'm thinking, "cuendillar can currently be
made out of iron, it fuses stuff together, and it doesn't weigh
notably more than it did before it was converted so making cannons out
of it would work pretty well."

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
"Hmm. It wasn't mentioned here ... maybe if I read the entire series
again and focus entirely on the weight of cuendillar, it'll be
mentioned in there somewhere. Sanders was so sure, and he never
forgets anything which is why I'm doing this research for him."

You're very tetchy, Aaron.

***@w
--
Of course, if any other Aarons show up now, I'll have to call them Bum-
bum, Cunty, Dinglewhacker, and on down through the alphabet just to
keep from being confused.

Aaron

2011-01-18 18:48:59 UTC

Post by Aaron
Who the hell are you calling "tammi", bubba?

At 14, Tammi is too old for Mister C so I guess he cut her loose.

Works for me.

Duly adjusted.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Goes back (to borrow from our e-mail discussions) to Dune, though.
Wasn't mutant-emperor Paul spice-addled and weird in a similar way?

Nope. His kids, sort of, and his sister, moreso. And less so, in a
different way.

Right, so sort of. And sort of not really.
Who knows, maybe another generation of super-channelers would turn
them into jumara.
Which is weirdly close to the Finnish word "jumala", meaning "God".
Hmm.

Post by Aaron
*strokes chin thoughtfully and sagely*

*slaps hand away*
That tickles.

Aw, you know you like it.

All the more reason to slap your hand away!

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Sorry, was cuendillar heavier than iron? I don't remember that ever
being said.

It's heavier than armor. That was surely mentioned. Much heavier. So.

It was? I don't remember this ever being mentioned.

Geezus! Your memory sucks, elephant or not.

Cite, or drop.

Post by Aaron
Well, go back to...whichever book cuendillar was first discussed with
Moiraine, or Verin, I believe. Or just trust me. My memory never fails
me. Just others.

I won't accept this until there's a quote to back you up. Sorry.

You have a habit of asking for things that are incredibly hard to look
up. I gave up after just a few moments on that site where you can
search TWOT, because I realized just how difficult your request was.

So lets back up and dissect the basis of our disagreement.

You asked if cuendillar was heavier than iron, to which I (arguably
incorrectly) said "yes". It is denser than iron, based on the harbor
chain discussions, or at least I think so.

So,

1. Do you accept that cuendillar is denser than most materials from
which it is made?

2. How dense? What is YOUR justification for your current thoughts?

I believe, as do most who write about it online (do some googling),
that it is heavier (denser) than anything you make it from, including
metals like steel or iron.

However, most of this belief, I now see, is from reading comments from
fans over the years. There is the harbor chain bit, which I expect you
will discovered (Knife of Dreams). If you are lazy I might do so
instead.

And in those comments, someone pointed out that you could make a suit
of armor from VERY thin metal, and then turn it into cuendillar and it
wouldn't be all that heavy (just inflexible).

So...uhm...what were we discussing again? Oh yes, the cannons. Yeah,
they'd be very heavy. Like the chain.

-Aaron

Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom

2011-01-19 08:14:00 UTC

Post by Aaron
Well, go back to...whichever book cuendillar was first discussed with
Moiraine, or Verin, I believe. Or just trust me. My memory never fails
me. Just others.

I won't accept this until there's a quote to back you up. Sorry.

My request? You said there were scenes where cuendillar was described
as being heavier than iron. Since it was only (re)discovered that
cuendillar could be made from iron in the last few books, it seems odd
that they would be compared anywhere else. I would have thought, if
Jordan was going to remark on its heaviness, he would have done so in
reference to lead. I don't recall him ever making any reference to the
weight of cuendillar objects though.

If you can't find anyone saying that cuendillar is very heavy, I am
perfectly willing to believe it was never said. Because I certainly
can't remember anything about cuendillar being heavier than iron.

Not that, I repeat, it really matters for the sake of the cuendillar
cannon conversion debate.

Post by Aaron
So lets back up and dissect the basis of our disagreement.

Do let's.

Post by Aaron
You asked if cuendillar was heavier than iron, to which I (arguably
incorrectly) said "yes".

Um, sorry Mister Memory, but I think it went more along the lines of
me asking why the hell Elayne didn't suggest turning the cannons into
cuendillar to cancel out any flaws. You replied (among other things)
that there would be a mobility issue because cuendillar was so much
heavier than iron.

You: "I would think the weight of cuendillar would make this
impractical. The cannon would bog down much easier, be harder to move
and operate, and ditto the cannonball."

There's where we started. And I say again, as I said originally, the
weight and mobility of the cannon hardly matters, when you're going to
be transporting them by gateway, and possibly carrying them with the
One Power otherwise. But my repeated claims that this is irrelevant
seem to be going unheeded for the purposes of this side-debate.

Post by Aaron
It is denser than iron, based on the harbor
chain discussions, or at least I think so.

I accept that you think so. There's nothing in the harbour chain
discussion to bear that out though, that I recall. I recall nothing
about the chain becoming heavier. Egwene decided it would be a good
idea to convert the chain when she saw her test pieces fuse together.
The chain and its housings would become a serious inconvenience if
they were all fused into one invincible piece, their weight be damned.
Fusing them together essentially sealed Tar Valon's supply routes,
effectively besieging the city.

Post by Aaron
1. Do you accept that cuendillar is denser than most materials from
which it is made?

Denser? Possibly, if density is what makes cuendillar invincible. I
tend to think it is *magic*. There is mention of the One Power in
reference to cuendillar. I don't remember any about density or weight.

All we (I, perhaps) really know about cuendillar at this point is:

- It is invincible.
- It gets stronger the more destructive force is focussed on it.
- It can be created by placing a weave on iron.
- Interlinked pieces of iron tend to fuse into a single piece of
cuendillar rather than making interlinked pieces of cuendillar.

Anything else is supposition, unless you can find a quote mentioning
anything about its weight and density.

Post by Aaron
2. How dense? What is YOUR justification for your current thoughts?

I don't know how dense. I am not making any case for its density
whatsoever. I'm just saying that its weight is not an acceptable
counter-argument to its being used as a material to make cannons. And
lack of cited precedent regarding the weight of cuendillar is among my
reasons for saying so. Its utter irrelevance is another.

Post by Aaron
I believe, as do most who write about it online (do some googling),
that it is heavier (denser) than anything you make it from, including
metals like steel or iron.

I'm going to pretend you weren't trying to pass this off as a point.
"Do some googling"? Tell me, did you open up Google and type
"cuendillar heavier than iron" into the search function?

Also, what manner of discussion was this? As far as I know there is
only one way to make cuendillar so far rediscovered: by converting it
from iron. Where did this "heavier than anything you make it from,
including metals" thing come from? Do we see, anywhere in the books,
cuendillar being made from any substance other than iron?

If it's possible, maybe Elayne can carve some cannons out of balsa
wood and then make them into cuendillar. Heavier than balsa wood is
probably still lighter than iron, right? So that would seem to solve
all the problems with the cuendillar cannon - the weight, the
dificulty in making them precisely enough, the expense of iron and
forging and casting ... everything.

You're right. It *is* easier when you just make up elements of the
story.

Post by Aaron
However, most of this belief, I now see, is from reading comments from
fans over the years. There is the harbor chain bit, which I expect you
will discovered (Knife of Dreams). If you are lazy I might do so
instead.

Please do. Like I said, I see no reward in searching a book for
something you think exists but which I do not, only to be accused of
laziness or dishonesty when I turn up nothing.

Post by Aaron
And in those comments, someone pointed out that you could make a suit
of armor from VERY thin metal, and then turn it into cuendillar and it
wouldn't be all that heavy (just inflexible).

Are we talking about a newsgroup discussion now?

You could probably make various pieces of armour separately, and turn
them, and then put them on piece by piece. They wouldn't interlock
like proper plate, but they'd be invincible and yes, I think they
would be lighter because I DON'T RECALL ANYTHING IN THE BOOKS ABOUT
CUENDILLAR BEING HEAVIER THAN IRON.

Mind you, if you can make cuendillar out of paper, that'd be pretty
light too. You could make good armour out of that.

Post by Aaron
So...uhm...what were we discussing again? Oh yes, the cannons. Yeah,
they'd be very heavy. Like the chain.

The chain was very heavy already. It was a sea-gate.

***@w
--
And the cannons were very heavy too. They are cannons.

Aaron

2011-01-19 14:38:53 UTC

Post by Aaron
Well, go back to...whichever book cuendillar was first discussed with
Moiraine, or Verin, I believe. Or just trust me. My memory never fails
me. Just others.

I won't accept this until there's a quote to back you up. Sorry.

My request? You said there were scenes where cuendillar was described
as being heavier than iron. Since it was only (re)discovered that
cuendillar could be made from iron in the last few books, it seems odd
that they would be compared anywhere else. I would have thought, if
Jordan was going to remark on its heaviness, he would have done so in
reference to lead. I don't recall him ever making any reference to the
weight of cuendillar objects though.
If you can't find anyone saying that cuendillar is very heavy, I am
perfectly willing to believe it was never said. Because I certainly
can't remember anything about cuendillar being heavier than iron.
Not that, I repeat, it really matters for the sake of the cuendillar
cannon conversion debate.

Post by Aaron
So lets back up and dissect the basis of our disagreement.

Do let's.

Post by Aaron
You asked if cuendillar was heavier than iron, to which I (arguably
incorrectly) said "yes".

Um, sorry Mister Memory, but I think it went more along the lines of
me asking why the hell Elayne didn't suggest turning the cannons into
cuendillar to cancel out any flaws. You replied (among other things)
that there would be a mobility issue because cuendillar was so much
heavier than iron.
You: "I would think the weight of cuendillar would make this
impractical. The cannon would bog down much easier, be harder to move
and operate, and ditto the cannonball."
There's where we started. And I say again, as I said originally, the
weight and mobility of the cannon hardly matters, when you're going to
be transporting them by gateway, and possibly carrying them with the
One Power otherwise. But my repeated claims that this is irrelevant
seem to be going unheeded for the purposes of this side-debate.

Post by Aaron
It is denser than iron, based on the harbor
chain discussions, or at least I think so.

Post by Aaron
1. Do you accept that cuendillar is denser than most materials from
which it is made?

Denser? Possibly, if density is what makes cuendillar invincible. I
tend to think it is *magic*. There is mention of the One Power in
reference to cuendillar. I don't remember any about density or weight.
- It is invincible.
- It gets stronger the more destructive force is focussed on it.
- It can be created by placing a weave on iron.
- Interlinked pieces of iron tend to fuse into a single piece of
cuendillar rather than making interlinked pieces of cuendillar.
Anything else is supposition, unless you can find a quote mentioning
anything about its weight and density.

Post by Aaron
2. How dense? What is YOUR justification for your current thoughts?

Post by Aaron
I believe, as do most who write about it online (do some googling),
that it is heavier (denser) than anything you make it from, including
metals like steel or iron.

I'm going to pretend you weren't trying to pass this off as a point.
"Do some googling"? Tell me, did you open up Google and type
"cuendillar heavier than iron" into the search function?
Also, what manner of discussion was this? As far as I know there is
only one way to make cuendillar so far rediscovered: by converting it
from iron. Where did this "heavier than anything you make it from,
including metals" thing come from? Do we see, anywhere in the books,
cuendillar being made from any substance other than iron?
If it's possible, maybe Elayne can carve some cannons out of balsa
wood and then make them into cuendillar. Heavier than balsa wood is
probably still lighter than iron, right? So that would seem to solve
all the problems with the cuendillar cannon - the weight, the
dificulty in making them precisely enough, the expense of iron and
forging and casting ... everything.
You're right. It *is* easier when you just make up elements of the
story.

Please do. Like I said, I see no reward in searching a book for
something you think exists but which I do not, only to be accused of
laziness or dishonesty when I turn up nothing.

Are we talking about a newsgroup discussion now?
You could probably make various pieces of armour separately, and turn
them, and then put them on piece by piece. They wouldn't interlock
like proper plate, but they'd be invincible and yes, I think they
would be lighter because I DON'T RECALL ANYTHING IN THE BOOKS ABOUT
CUENDILLAR BEING HEAVIER THAN IRON.
Mind you, if you can make cuendillar out of paper, that'd be pretty
light too. You could make good armour out of that.

Post by Aaron
So...uhm...what were we discussing again? Oh yes, the cannons. Yeah,
they'd be very heavy. Like the chain.

The chain was very heavy already. It was a sea-gate.
--
And the cannons were very heavy too. They are cannons.

Wow. Well I suppose I deserved this, because I gave you the wrong
book. The effects of turning the harbor chain into cuendillar are in
CoT, not KoD. I brought the wrong book to work today so this will have
to wait.

One thing (busy right now): cuendillar ONLY from iron? What? So the
teacups etc. that the rebels were turning into cuendillar, those were
IRON teacups? Weird. You might wish to reread (or read?) that part of
the book. I believe it is the same book, CoT. Will tell you tomorrow.

-Aaron

Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom

2011-01-20 13:47:04 UTC

Post by Aaron
Wow. Well I suppose I deserved this, because I gave you the wrong
book. The effects of turning the harbor chain into cuendillar are in
CoT, not KoD. I brought the wrong book to work today so this will have
to wait.

Deserve what? Me being a bit sarcastic with you? Nobody deserves that.

Post by Aaron
One thing (busy right now): cuendillar ONLY from iron? What? So the
teacups etc. that the rebels were turning into cuendillar, those were
IRON teacups? Weird. You might wish to reread (or read?) that part of
the book. I believe it is the same book, CoT. Will tell you tomorrow.

Yeah, I'll look into it myself because I seriously don't remember
this. They could have been metal cups of some sort, but if it is
possible to turn other substances into cuendillar then it renders the
whole weight argument moot.

You can make cannons out of paper-thin china and then convert them to
cuendillar, presumably at a fraction of the weight of the iron
equivalents.

I'm also a bit puzzled by the very idea. Surely cuendillar is
cuendillar, and has the same denssity / weight whatever its source
material? A plate of lead and a plate of papiér maché would both turn
into plates of cuendillar of the same weight.

Otherwise, if cuendillar's weight is always, say, three times the
weight of the originator-substance, what we would have is different
weighted cuendillar objects - potentially a statue weighing less than
a set of blacksmith's hammers, but made out of the same substance.

That just seems really weird to me.

***@w
--
But that doesn't mean it's wrong.

Just, you know, a *kind* of wrong.

David DeLaney

2011-01-19 15:35:38 UTC

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
- It is invincible.
- It gets stronger the more destructive force is focussed on it.
- It can be created by placing a weave on iron.
- Interlinked pieces of iron tend to fuse into a single piece of
cuendillar rather than making interlinked pieces of cuendillar.
Anything else is supposition, unless you can find a quote mentioning
anything about its weight and density.

-SOMETHING, possibly being touched by the Dark One or the True Power, possibly
being mentioned in the Steal of Time, we don't know what, is capable of taking
perfectly good cuendillar and making it non-invincible, and in fact rather
fragile after a while.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Mind you, if you can make cuendillar out of paper, that'd be pretty
light too. You could make good armour out of that.

And I have no objection to the "okay, you could build VERY THIN cannons out
of iron, then cuendillarize them" part. But... they'd better be pretty close
to the right shape for cannon before you convert, because you're not gonna
be able to file bits off or slightly bend it to tweak or adjust things
afterwards. (And remember to leave the borehole-closing thing OUT of it while
you convert it, as otherwise you won't be able to open/close it after...)

Dave

Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom

2011-01-20 13:50:52 UTC

Right you are. That too.

Although the pieces of the broken seal still seemed to be semi-
invincible in at least one case of a breaking seal, at the beginning.
One of the characters hit a broken piece with a knife, and the knife
broke, and they concluded that it was still cuendillar.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Mind you, if you can make cuendillar out of paper, that'd be pretty
light too. You could make good armour out of that.

And I have no objection to the "okay, you could build VERY THIN cannons out
of iron, then cuendillarize them" part.

Right.

Post by David DeLaney
But... they'd better be pretty close
to the right shape for cannon before you convert, because you're not gonna
be able to file bits off or slightly bend it to tweak or adjust things
afterwards.

Exactly.

You're only out a bit of cardboard tubing, and a few minutes of
channeling either way.

Post by David DeLaney
(And remember to leave the borehole-closing thing OUT of it while
you convert it, as otherwise you won't be able to open/close it after...)

Exactly.

I don't see that this is much of an impediment to at least trying the
idea - any more than I see the weight being an issue (even if it is
true that cuendillar weighs more). As soon as Elayne heard that the
cannons were volatile and could explode if not done properly, she
should have at least suggested making them into cuendillar.

***@w
--
And I don't see why a test-firing couldn't be done before the
conversion, just to make sure everything is ship-shape.

Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom

2011-01-21 08:29:32 UTC

Post by David DeLaney
(And remember to leave the borehole-closing thing OUT of it while
you convert it, as otherwise you won't be able to open/close it after...)

Exactly.

A couple of points came up during my research into this, including a
couple of compelling points that could have bearing on the case.

First of all, the fusing of iron pieces on conversion would solve a
lot of the problems with forging and casting the cannons in the first
place. You could make them in several pieces, making sure all the
inner workings meshed nicely and all the tubes were clear.

Then you could just hold it together or tie it with string or
something. Then convert the whole lot and it would fuse together into
a single lump. Perfect.

Of course, only Egwene so far seems able to make things into
cuendillar in the blink of an eye, and she has better things to do.
From what I read, the Aes Sedai generally take hours even to convert
something as small as a cup. So there's point number one against the
cuendillar cannon.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
I don't see that this is much of an impediment to at least trying the
idea - any more than I see the weight being an issue (even if it is
true that cuendillar weighs more). As soon as Elayne heard that the
cannons were volatile and could explode if not done properly, she
should have at least suggested making them into cuendillar.

Point number two against the cuendillar cannon, although I am not sure
if it has much bearing on the case of defending the world against the
Shadow, is that the Aes Sedai were selling their home-made cuendillar
to the Sea Folk in order to get cash and concessions from them. Never
mind the fact that the Sea Folk are annoying and pointless and I can't
believe anyone is still paying any attention to them ... the point was
that they were having to be very careful with the cuendillar they were
"finding" and dealing out to the Sea Folk, so as not to arouse
suspicion about where it was coming from and so as not to devalue the
substance and make it useless as a trading commodity.

If cannons started turning up made of the stuff, and people realised
the Aes Sedai basically had a license to print invincible money out of
any old scrap iron, the whole market would collapse.

***@w
--
Arguing your own points is fun. A bit pointless, but fun.

Aaron

2011-01-21 15:29:25 UTC

Post by David DeLaney
(And remember to leave the borehole-closing thing OUT of it while
you convert it, as otherwise you won't be able to open/close it after...)

Exactly.

A couple of points came up during my research into this, including a
couple of compelling points that could have bearing on the case.
First of all, the fusing of iron pieces on conversion would solve a
lot of the problems with forging and casting the cannons in the first
place. You could make them in several pieces, making sure all the
inner workings meshed nicely and all the tubes were clear.
Then you could just hold it together or tie it with string or
something. Then convert the whole lot and it would fuse together into
a single lump. Perfect.
Of course, only Egwene so far seems able to make things into
cuendillar in the blink of an eye, and she has better things to do.
From what I read, the Aes Sedai generally take hours even to convert
something as small as a cup. So there's point number one against the
cuendillar cannon.

Point number two against the cuendillar cannon, although I am not sure
if it has much bearing on the case of defending the world against the
Shadow, is that the Aes Sedai were selling their home-made cuendillar
to the Sea Folk in order to get cash and concessions from them. Never
mind the fact that the Sea Folk are annoying and pointless and I can't
believe anyone is still paying any attention to them ... the point was
that they were having to be very careful with the cuendillar they were
"finding" and dealing out to the Sea Folk, so as not to arouse
suspicion about where it was coming from and so as not to devalue the
substance and make it useless as a trading commodity.
If cannons started turning up made of the stuff, and people realised
the Aes Sedai basically had a license to print invincible money out of
any old scrap iron, the whole market would collapse.
--
Arguing your own points is fun. A bit pointless, but fun.

Don't I know it.

Good points. The fusing is a very annoying problem, but I don't think
the channeling time is. Yes, Egwene is busy, but all they'd have to do
is line the shit up and have her walk down the line. She Travels
there, does it, and Travels back. 1 hour of her time?

I think a major part of the weight speculations was the fans thinking
"why have they found no cuendillar armor"? Either directly from that
discussion, or part from the book and mostly from that discussion, the
main thoughts seemed to be (and I agreed at the time), that it must be
because the extremely strong cuendillar must be very dense and heavy.

Also, it would be inflexible, which led to speculation of chain links
(oops, that wouldn't work), or laced-together pieces (leather straps
and whatnot). The fusing causes even more trouble than the weight,
since even if you made it of thin links or plates, they would all
fuse. So the armor would be strange, but I wonder if it could still be
done. Obviously, the non-cuendillar parts would be the weak point.

So why wasn't it ever done, if it wasn't too heavy or whatever?

-Aaron

Chucky & Janica

2011-01-22 14:40:10 UTC

Post by Aaron
So why wasn't it ever done, if it wasn't too heavy or whatever?

Yep, it occurred to me that it would be possible to make plate armour
out of cuendillar, in pieces and then assemble it on the body, holding
it in place with straps.

One reason it might never have been done is, the armour might not have
been very useful. Wars in the Age of Legends or thereabouts would
have been fought with the One Power or with weapons like shocklances,
and we don't really know what they did.

Imagine a person in cuendillar armour being balefired. To survive it,
the cuendillar would have to be completely seamless and how would the
person see out? A single grille or eye-slot or elbow-join, and the
balefire would erase the person inside and leave the armour standing
there. Maybe leaving a hilarious armour-clad-person-shaped piece of
wall behind them as the rest of the wall is likewise erased.

Big cuendillar shields or domes might have been useful, but sort of
awkward.

It's also possible (another point I picked up on while re-reading)
that even in the Age of Legends they didn't really know how to make
cuendillar. Egwene tried to learn about it from Moghedien, who
suggested there was some way of doing it and that there had been
artisans or something back in the day who guarded the secret, but she
didn't know how. Egwene had to learn all on her own. Like
wolfbrothers, the making of cuendillar might be an even older skill
that has just been lost.

It stands to reason, if lots of people knew how to make it and they
used it for warfare, there would be a whole lot more of it lying
around to be found in Egwene's time. The fact that there isn't
suggests to me that there was some reason they didn't use it.

C&J

Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom

2011-01-28 11:08:46 UTC

-SOMETHING, possibly being touched by the Dark One or the True
Power, possibly being mentioned in the Steal of Time, we don't know
what, is capable of taking perfectly good cuendillar and making it
non-invincible, and in fact rather fragile after a while.

Right you are. That too.

Here's something *else* I just realised, about cuendillar and maybe
speaking of its source material (iron or otherwise):

The Seals of the Dark One's prison are discs representing the ancient
Aes Sedai symbol, right? Which is stolen from the yin yang, just
without the dots? So two interlocking teardrop-shapes, the Flame and
the Fang, the former white and the latter black?

So how did Lews Therin make black cuendillar?

Were the Seals painted? Were they fabricated out of pure metaphor when
Lews Therin sealed the Bore? Were they existing artifacts before and
his spell turned them into cuendillar? Were they made of iron and
something else, so the iron part went white and the other part went
black? Did he use the One Power and the True Power together so the
Dark One couldn't use one or the other to break free, and in the
process ended up with two different versions of cuendillar?

Discuss.

***@w
--
Let supposition and fan-wanking set you free!

Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom

2011-01-28 11:10:28 UTC

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
So how did Lews Therin make black cuendillar?
Were the Seals painted? Were they fabricated out of pure metaphor when
Lews Therin sealed the Bore? Were they existing artifacts before and
his spell turned them into cuendillar? Were they made of iron and
something else, so the iron part went white and the other part went
black? Did he use the One Power and the True Power together so the
Dark One couldn't use one or the other to break free, and in the
process ended up with two different versions of cuendillar?
Discuss.

Yet more exciting, does iron converted into cuendillar by a man
(saidin) go black, while iron converted by a woman (saidar) go white?

But that doesn't make sense either, because the whole point of Lews
Therin's failure was that he didn't have any women to help him.

***@w
--
Gah.

Aaron

2011-01-28 14:31:37 UTC

Yet more exciting, does iron converted into cuendillar by a man
(saidin) go black, while iron converted by a woman (saidar) go white?
But that doesn't make sense either, because the whole point of Lews
Therin's failure was that he didn't have any women to help him.
--
Gah.

I have it! RJ didn't think it out very well before he starting talking
about cuendillar.

-Aaron

Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom

2011-01-31 06:56:48 UTC

Yet more exciting, does iron converted into cuendillar by a man
(saidin) go black, while iron converted by a woman (saidar) go white?
But that doesn't make sense either, because the whole point of Lews
Therin's failure was that he didn't have any women to help him.

I have it! RJ didn't think it out very well before he starting talking
about cuendillar.

That's a terrible explanation.

***@w
--
And it makes me sad.

Aaron

2011-01-31 17:46:14 UTC

Yet more exciting, does iron converted into cuendillar by a man
(saidin) go black, while iron converted by a woman (saidar) go white?
But that doesn't make sense either, because the whole point of Lews
Therin's failure was that he didn't have any women to help him.

I have it! RJ didn't think it out very well before he starting talking
about cuendillar.

That's a terrible explanation.
--
And it makes me sad.

Not a fan of the truth, are ya, TaimTaimer?

-Aaron

Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom

2011-02-01 07:49:31 UTC

Post by Aaron
I have it! RJ didn't think it out very well before he starting talking
about cuendillar.

That's a terrible explanation.
And it makes me sad.

Not a fan of the truth, are ya, TaimTaimer?

I'm not taking that from a Taimandretard. Not today, not ever.

*takes off glove and slaps Aaron's face*

***@w
--
Whose glove was that anyway?

Aaron

2011-02-01 12:36:14 UTC

Post by Aaron
I have it! RJ didn't think it out very well before he starting talking
about cuendillar.

That's a terrible explanation.
And it makes me sad.

Not a fan of the truth, are ya, TaimTaimer?

I'm not taking that from a Taimandretard. Not today, not ever.

You'll take it and you'll like i--

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
*takes off glove and slaps Aaron's face*

Hey! I was using that face! I think...

This means war. And you know how Americans are about war.

OK yes, bad, that too. But I was going for "eager" and "experienced".

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
--
Whose glove was that anyway?

Must be mine, since I'm gettin' no love lately.

-Aaron

Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom

2011-02-02 07:34:25 UTC

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
*takes off glove and slaps Aaron's face*

Hey! I was using that face! I think...
This means war. And you know how Americans are about war.
OK yes, bad, that too. But I was going for "eager" and "experienced".

Never managed to win one without help?

***@w
--
The Civil War doesn't count.

Aaron

2011-02-02 12:34:29 UTC

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
*takes off glove and slaps Aaron's face*

Hey! I was using that face! I think...
This means war. And you know how Americans are about war.
OK yes, bad, that too. But I was going for "eager" and "experienced".

Never managed to win one without help?

With friends like those...

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
--
The Civil War doesn't count.

We rule at killing fellow Americans.

-Aaron

David DeLaney

2011-01-29 05:16:34 UTC

Post by David DeLaney
-SOMETHING, possibly being touched by the Dark One or the True
Power, possibly being mentioned in the Steal of Time, we don't know
what, is capable of taking perfectly good cuendillar and making it
non-invincible, and in fact rather fragile after a while.

Right you are. That too.

Here's something *else* I just realised, about cuendillar and maybe

The tor.com reread went past a confirming bit about this over the last month
or so; ... okay, and Leigh actually quotes it - chapter 17, Crossroads of
Twilight:

In front of each woman, a close net woven of Earth, Fire and Air surrounded
a small bowl or cup or the like, all made by the camp's blacksmiths, who
were very puzzled at why the sisters wanted such things made of iron, not
to mention having them made as finely as if they were silver. A second
weave, Earth and Fire woven just so, penetrated each net to touch the
object, which was slowly turning white. Very, very slowly, in every case.

So I suppose it's possible one could make cuendillar from other stuff, but
the Aes Sedai in question only know how to make it from iron.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
So how did Lews Therin make black cuendillar?

We dunno. It might be what happens when, you know, GUYS make it. Might be
some other weave the ladies don't know yet. Could be sunspots. If Rand ever
finally gets around to making more than a five-minute visit to the Black
Tower again, after the dust settles we might find out...

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Were the Seals painted? Were they fabricated out of pure metaphor when
Lews Therin sealed the Bore? Were they existing artifacts before and
his spell turned them into cuendillar? Were they made of iron and
something else, so the iron part went white and the other part went
black? Did he use the One Power and the True Power together so the
Dark One couldn't use one or the other to break free, and in the
process ended up with two different versions of cuendillar?

And what about Naomi?

Dave

Aaron

2011-01-29 12:01:43 UTC

Right you are. That too.

Here's something *else* I just realised, about cuendillar and maybe

The tor.com reread went past a confirming bit about this over the last month
or so; ... okay, and Leigh actually quotes it - chapter 17, Crossroads of
In front of each woman, a close net woven of Earth, Fire and Air surrounded
a small bowl or cup or the like, all made by the camp's blacksmiths, who
were very puzzled at why the sisters wanted such things made of iron, not
to mention having them made as finely as if they were silver. A second
weave, Earth and Fire woven just so, penetrated each net to touch the
object, which was slowly turning white. Very, very slowly, in every case.

Excellent! That is the very section Chucky and I knew we hadn't found
(well, he hadn't found) and discussed, that would give us the best
assessment of the Rebels' knowledge of cuendillar making.

So, as far as we know from the books, it's iron only. Is that what Mat
was going to make the cannons from? I can't remember now.
Bells...aren't they steel or brass or bronze or something like that?
Or silver, yeah...silver bells.

Post by David DeLaney
So I suppose it's possible one could make cuendillar from other stuff, but
the Aes Sedai in question only know how to make it from iron.

It would have been nice if RJ had just put a sentence in there about
how Egwene applied the weave to other metals, or horseshit maybe, and
it didn't work.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
So how did Lews Therin make black cuendillar?

And what about Naomi?
Dave

Nice find!

-Aaron

Horseshit cuendillar...that would be a great prop for Mat's Joke Shop,
after the Last Battle.

David DeLaney

2011-01-30 03:13:13 UTC

Post by David DeLaney
In front of each woman, a close net woven of Earth, Fire and Air surrounded
a small bowl or cup or the like, all made by the camp's blacksmiths, who
were very puzzled at why the sisters wanted such things made of iron, not
to mention having them made as finely as if they were silver. A second
weave, Earth and Fire woven just so, penetrated each net to touch the
object, which was slowly turning white. Very, very slowly, in every case.

Excellent! That is the very section Chucky and I knew we hadn't found
(well, he hadn't found) and discussed, that would give us the best
assessment of the Rebels' knowledge of cuendillar making.
So, as far as we know from the books, it's iron only. Is that what Mat
was going to make the cannons from? I can't remember now.
Bells...aren't they steel or brass or bronze or something like that?
Or silver, yeah...silver bells.

The Tintinnabulation has a section on iron bells, so it could work. But
yeah, the bellfoundries were using, I think, a bronze alloy. Mat was still
puzzled up to at least very recently.

Dave "it's always hidden right there in the open" DeLaney

Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom

2011-01-31 07:02:14 UTC

Post by David DeLaney
The Tintinnabulation has a section on iron bells, so it could work. But
yeah, the bellfoundries were using, I think, a bronze alloy. Mat was still
puzzled up to at least very recently.

So it's entirely possible that they *couldn't* make cuendillar out of
the cannons.

Unless they made the cannons out of iron. Any reason to use bronze
alloy instead of iron would be moot once it became invincible, I would
think.

***@w
--
Any reason to do with its fragility, at least.

Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom

2011-01-31 06:59:47 UTC

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Here's something *else* I just realised, about cuendillar and maybe

Ahh, someone else finally joined the game and put us out of our misery
with a further quote! Excellent, thank you.

I was trying to find further conversion scenes. Still have yet to find
Egwene's initial discovery scene though.

Post by David DeLaney
So I suppose it's possible one could make cuendillar from other stuff, but
the Aes Sedai in question only know how to make it from iron.

*nod*

And what about Naomi?

Who the fuck is Naomi?

***@w
--
What the fuck is going on here?

David DeLaney

2011-01-31 11:43:41 UTC

And what about Naomi?

Who the fuck is Naomi?

Love. Of. Chair.

Dave "will be cryptically googlable for food" DeLaney

Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom

2011-02-01 07:52:19 UTC

And what about Naomi?

Who the fuck is Naomi?

Love. Of. Chair.

Heh. Never saw the sketch, or the show.

"The Naomi mentioned in the segment refers to Naomi Foner, who was a
producer on the show during the first two seasons and is the mother of
actress Maggie Gyllenhaal and actor Jake Gyllenhaal."

***@w
--
I learned something today. It wasn't useful, but I learned it.

David DeLaney

2011-02-01 16:55:04 UTC

Post by David DeLaney
And what about Naomi?

Who the fuck is Naomi?

Love. Of. Chair.

Heh. Never saw the sketch, or the show.

Last time I saw The Electric Company was decades ago, so I don't remember if
I ever saw the sketch myself. But it has insinuated itself into the dark
dank spaces of my brane.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
"The Naomi mentioned in the segment refers to Naomi Foner, who was a
producer on the show during the first two seasons and is the mother of
actress Maggie Gyllenhaal and actor Jake Gyllenhaal."

And Now You Know!

Dave "and knowing is half the Last Battle" DeLaney

Aaron

2011-01-19 17:44:04 UTC

I don't know if, at this point, there is anything in here worth
responding to, but I'm still pissed so I'll give it a go anyway.

Post by Aaron
Well, go back to...whichever book cuendillar was first discussed with
Moiraine, or Verin, I believe. Or just trust me. My memory never fails
me. Just others.

I won't accept this until there's a quote to back you up. Sorry.

My request? You said there were scenes where cuendillar was described
as being heavier than iron. Since it was only (re)discovered that
cuendillar could be made from iron in the last few books, it seems odd
that they would be compared anywhere else. I would have thought, if
Jordan was going to remark on its heaviness, he would have done so in
reference to lead. I don't recall him ever making any reference to the
weight of cuendillar objects though.
If you can't find anyone saying that cuendillar is very heavy, I am
perfectly willing to believe it was never said. Because I certainly
can't remember anything about cuendillar being heavier than iron.

Well, since you think it can only be made from iron, your memory is
very suspect, I'd say. As I mentioned earlier.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Not that, I repeat, it really matters for the sake of the cuendillar
cannon conversion debate.

Course it does. Unless we just want to agree that Elayne is a twit and
you are a genius, worthy of the Steal. That's alright then.

Post by Aaron
So lets back up and dissect the basis of our disagreement.

Do let's.

Post by Aaron
You asked if cuendillar was heavier than iron, to which I (arguably
incorrectly) said "yes".

Um, sorry Mister Memory, but I think it went more along the lines of
me asking why the hell Elayne didn't suggest turning the cannons into
cuendillar to cancel out any flaws. You replied (among other things)
that there would be a mobility issue because cuendillar was so much
heavier than iron.
You: "I would think the weight of cuendillar would make this
impractical. The cannon would bog down much easier, be harder to move
and operate, and ditto the cannonball."
There's where we started. And I say again, as I said originally, the
weight and mobility of the cannon hardly matters, when you're going to
be transporting them by gateway, and possibly carrying them with the
One Power otherwise. But my repeated claims that this is irrelevant
seem to be going unheeded for the purposes of this side-debate.

That's not how the transport was proposed. So, doom on you. Doom on
you...

Post by Aaron
It is denser than iron, based on the harbor
chain discussions, or at least I think so.

We'll find you tomorrow.

Post by Aaron
1. Do you accept that cuendillar is denser than most materials from
which it is made?

I don't believe in magic!

*refuses to budge*

1. Focused has 1 "s"
2. Harbor has no "u".
3. I guess that's all.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Anything else is supposition, unless you can find a quote mentioning
anything about its weight and density.

So do you see no value in anything discussed outside the books? Just
curious. Because, I know RJ thought of EVERYTHING and all that, but
come on, some of us (maybe even you) have functioning brains.

Post by Aaron
2. How dense? What is YOUR justification for your current thoughts?

Damn it, I wish I'd brought the right book today.

Post by Aaron
I believe, as do most who write about it online (do some googling),
that it is heavier (denser) than anything you make it from, including
metals like steel or iron.

I'm going to pretend you weren't trying to pass this off as a point.
"Do some googling"? Tell me, did you open up Google and type
"cuendillar heavier than iron" into the search function?

No. Nothing at all like that!

*shifty look*

Back to my point above: is there no value in fan discussions? Then,
what value your speculations about the cannons?

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Also, what manner of discussion was this? As far as I know there is
only one way to make cuendillar so far rediscovered: by converting it
from iron. Where did this "heavier than anything you make it from,
including metals" thing come from? Do we see, anywhere in the books,
cuendillar being made from any substance other than iron?

Yes. You read poorly, it seems.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
If it's possible, maybe Elayne can carve some cannons out of balsa
wood and then make them into cuendillar. Heavier than balsa wood is
probably still lighter than iron, right? So that would seem to solve
all the problems with the cuendillar cannon - the weight, the
dificulty in making them precisely enough, the expense of iron and
forging and casting ... everything.
You're right. It *is* easier when you just make up elements of the
story.

Or try to fill in missing pieces. How about that?

Please do. Like I said, I see no reward in searching a book for
something you think exists but which I do not, only to be accused of
laziness or dishonesty when I turn up nothing.

Lazy, dishonest shite that you are.

Are we talking about a newsgroup discussion now?
You could probably make various pieces of armour separately, and turn
them, and then put them on piece by piece. They wouldn't interlock
like proper plate, but they'd be invincible and yes, I think they
would be lighter because I DON'T RECALL ANYTHING IN THE BOOKS ABOUT
CUENDILLAR BEING HEAVIER THAN IRON.

Geez, was I swearing the whole proof was in the books? Though I
thought it was, I did expect that other rational discourse might serve
as some proof. No?

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Mind you, if you can make cuendillar out of paper, that'd be pretty
light too. You could make good armour out of that.

Post by Aaron
So...uhm...what were we discussing again? Oh yes, the cannons. Yeah,
they'd be very heavy. Like the chain.

The chain was very heavy already. It was a sea-gate.

And now even heavier.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
--
And the cannons were very heavy too. They are cannons.

My cannons can be lifted. Check this out!

*flexes*

-Aaron

Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom

2011-01-20 14:20:08 UTC

Post by Aaron
I don't know if, at this point, there is anything in here worth
responding to, but I'm still pissed

You sure are.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
My request? You said there were scenes where cuendillar was described
as being heavier than iron. Since it was only (re)discovered that
cuendillar could be made from iron in the last few books, it seems odd
that they would be compared anywhere else. I would have thought, if
Jordan was going to remark on its heaviness, he would have done so in
reference to lead. I don't recall him ever making any reference to the
weight of cuendillar objects though.
If you can't find anyone saying that cuendillar is very heavy, I am
perfectly willing to believe it was never said. Because I certainly
can't remember anything about cuendillar being heavier than iron.

Well, since you think it can only be made from iron, your memory is
very suspect, I'd say. As I mentioned earlier.

Yes I do think that. So prove me wrong and I'll take it all back...

...and default to my original point. Make the cannons out of
cuendillar. Your objection based on the weight was wrong even if
cuendillar *is* heavier, because it can be made out of other
substances.

So the best you can hope for here is that all your crazy memories of
this story were right, and your original overall point was wrong. But
I'll still give you a hug because I feel sorry for a poor suffering
Taimandretard.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Not that, I repeat, it really matters for the sake of the cuendillar
cannon conversion debate.

Course it does.

No it doesn't. Because the cannons could still be moved, they'd be far
less prone to instablity and detonation, and if they can indeed be
made out of other stuff, even the weight is no longer an issue. So no,
it doesn't matter.

Post by Aaron
Unless we just want to agree that Elayne is a twit and
you are a genius, worthy of the Steal. That's alright then.

What does that even mean? Boy, you *are* shirty.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
There's where we started. And I say again, as I said originally, the
weight and mobility of the cannon hardly matters, when you're going to
be transporting them by gateway, and possibly carrying them with the
One Power otherwise. But my repeated claims that this is irrelevant
seem to be going unheeded for the purposes of this side-debate.

That's not how the transport was proposed. So, doom on you. Doom on
you...

Um. They're moving their armies around by gateway. Why in the name of
all that is round-cheeked and sexually active would they move their
army somewhere by gateway, then send the heaviest, bulkiest part of
their fighting force overland?

And if they're just keeping the cannons stationary in the city of
their origin, your mobility issue is once again shot out of the water.
Where it shouldn't have been anyway, full of holes as it is.

1. Focused has 1 "s"
2. Harbor has no "u".
3. I guess that's all.

You're very uncivilised.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Anything else is supposition, unless you can find a quote mentioning
anything about its weight and density.

So do you see no value in anything discussed outside the books?

San ... *Aaron* ... we are talking about a plot point here. I ask why
Elayne didn't suggest making the cannons out of cuendillar. One of
your ideas was that it would be too heavy to be of any use.

In order for this discussion to have any real relevance, yes. It has
to come from inside the books. Otherwise I could just add a bit in the
Steal about how cuendillar is weightless, and we could agree that
they'd be useless as cannons because the recoil would send them flying
back into the friendly army's faces. That's discussion outside the
books.

And it's got no value.

Post by Aaron
Just curious. Because, I know RJ thought of EVERYTHING and all that, but
come on, some of us (maybe even you) have functioning brains.

There's no need to sulk.

If there's nothing in the books about how heavy cuendillar is, I see
absolutely no reason to believe it is heavier than iron or otherwise
heavier than its originator substance. I didn't believe it before you
asserted it, and I don't really believe it now although I am certainly
more curious than I was.

So by all means, let us check it out.

If cuendillar can be made from other substances, but always becomes
heavier during conversion, fine. I retract my smarms about your crazy-
arse memory (but stand by my ridicule of your attempts to convince me
without actual proof ... and the less said about you trying to get
*me* to find the proof, the better). In which case, I was right in my
original overall point and you, attempting to argue that the weight
would make them too cumbersome, were wrong.

At which point, I will resume smarming.

If cuendillar can only be made from iron at this point, and is not
mentioned as becoming heavier on conversion, then you were wrong about
your recollections but were at least right about the cannons becoming
too cumbersome, although I would argue (outside Jordan's scope,
because I agree he didn't think of everything and that's why we can
still discuss) that it wouldn't make them useless given the way
they're being used. Their invincibility far outweighs the extra
weight. If you'll pardon the expression.

At which point, I will resume smarming.

Post by Aaron
2. How dense? What is YOUR justification for your current thoughts?

Damn it, I wish I'd brought the right book today.

As I keep saying, even if cuendillar *does* become heavier it wouldn't
matter for the cannons.

Post by Aaron
Back to my point above: is there no value in fan discussions? Then,
what value your speculations about the cannons?

I want to know why Elayne didn't turn the cannons into cuendillar.
That would have been awesome, and clever. And I think she's a dork for
not doing it.

Therein lies the value, for me.

If the next book comes out and Sanderson says "Elayne had briefly
discussed the idea of making the cannons from cuendillar, but Aludra
concluded it was too difficult to get them the right shape and Egwene
said it was impossible because the cuendillium matrix would go
thermonuclear", then I will be satisfied and my criticisms will have
no value. Because no amount of fan speculation outweighs a single line
in the actual book.

I am questing for a "canon" pun here, but it's not coming to me.

Yes. You read poorly, it seems.

Spare the insults until you have citations.

Not because I think you're wrong, but there is always a chance you
will look a real tit if nothing shows up. You know, like I will look
if something *does* show up.

I mean, I'll still be right overall, but that's scant comfort when I
look a tit.

Or try to fill in missing pieces. How about that?

Okay. Fill in missing pieces with made-up stuff. If you can do it,
theoretically, so can I. Just saying.

But we're not talking about filling in missing pieces. These are
elements that you say are *in the story*. And as long as they are,
then we have no problem.

Please do. Like I said, I see no reward in searching a book for
something you think exists but which I do not, only to be accused of
laziness or dishonesty when I turn up nothing.

Lazy, dishonest shite that you are.

Seriously. I'm glad you're not trying to deny that this is how it
would play out.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
You could probably make various pieces of armour separately, and turn
them, and then put them on piece by piece. They wouldn't interlock
like proper plate, but they'd be invincible and yes, I think they
would be lighter because I DON'T RECALL ANYTHING IN THE BOOKS ABOUT
CUENDILLAR BEING HEAVIER THAN IRON.

Geez, was I swearing the whole proof was in the books?

Yes. That's the source of this argument.

Post by Aaron
Though I
thought it was, I did expect that other rational discourse might serve
as some proof. No?

I see no rational discourse. "Almost all the other online debates I
have seen about this agree that cuendillar is totally heavy" is not
rational discourse, even if you cited anything there, which you
didn't.

You haven't actually given any evidence at all. You've just said "it's
real, look it up, lots of people think so, look that up, if it's not
in the books then what random palookas from Butt-Fuck Idaho think
counts as proof, look those up".

Sorry, I don't value that as much as I should. Probably because I have
spent so many years bullshitting on this forum and I don't consider my
bullshit to outweigh canon - or even to really fill the gaps in canon.

***@w
--
Although if that's the argument we're going with, I can get behind it.
It'll guarantee a win for the 10-99 crowd at last.

Aaron

2011-01-20 17:34:03 UTC

Post by Aaron
I don't know if, at this point, there is anything in here worth
responding to, but I'm still pissed

You sure are.

Well, since you think it can only be made from iron, your memory is
very suspect, I'd say. As I mentioned earlier.

Yes I do think that. So prove me wrong and I'll take it all back...
...and default to my original point. Make the cannons out of
cuendillar. Your objection based on the weight was wrong even if
cuendillar *is* heavier, because it can be made out of other
substances.
So the best you can hope for here is that all your crazy memories of
this story were right, and your original overall point was wrong. But
I'll still give you a hug because I feel sorry for a poor suffering
Taimandretard.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Not that, I repeat, it really matters for the sake of the cuendillar
cannon conversion debate.

Course it does.

Post by Aaron
Unless we just want to agree that Elayne is a twit and
you are a genius, worthy of the Steal. That's alright then.

What does that even mean? Boy, you *are* shirty.

That's not how the transport was proposed. So, doom on you. Doom on
you...

Um. They're moving their armies around by gateway. Why in the name of
all that is round-cheeked and sexually active would they move their
army somewhere by gateway, then send the heaviest, bulkiest part of
their fighting force overland?
And if they're just keeping the cannons stationary in the city of
their origin, your mobility issue is once again shot out of the water.
Where it shouldn't have been anyway, full of holes as it is.

1. Focused has 1 "s"
2. Harbor has no "u".
3. I guess that's all.

You're very uncivilised.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Anything else is supposition, unless you can find a quote mentioning
anything about its weight and density.

So do you see no value in anything discussed outside the books?

San ... *Aaron* ... we are talking about a plot point here. I ask why
Elayne didn't suggest making the cannons out of cuendillar. One of
your ideas was that it would be too heavy to be of any use.
In order for this discussion to have any real relevance, yes. It has
to come from inside the books. Otherwise I could just add a bit in the
Steal about how cuendillar is weightless, and we could agree that
they'd be useless as cannons because the recoil would send them flying
back into the friendly army's faces. That's discussion outside the
books.
And it's got no value.

Post by Aaron
Just curious. Because, I know RJ thought of EVERYTHING and all that, but
come on, some of us (maybe even you) have functioning brains.

There's no need to sulk.
If there's nothing in the books about how heavy cuendillar is, I see
absolutely no reason to believe it is heavier than iron or otherwise
heavier than its originator substance. I didn't believe it before you
asserted it, and I don't really believe it now although I am certainly
more curious than I was.
So by all means, let us check it out.
If cuendillar can be made from other substances, but always becomes
heavier during conversion, fine. I retract my smarms about your crazy-
arse memory (but stand by my ridicule of your attempts to convince me
without actual proof ... and the less said about you trying to get
*me* to find the proof, the better). In which case, I was right in my
original overall point and you, attempting to argue that the weight
would make them too cumbersome, were wrong.
At which point, I will resume smarming.
If cuendillar can only be made from iron at this point, and is not
mentioned as becoming heavier on conversion, then you were wrong about
your recollections but were at least right about the cannons becoming
too cumbersome, although I would argue (outside Jordan's scope,
because I agree he didn't think of everything and that's why we can
still discuss) that it wouldn't make them useless given the way
they're being used. Their invincibility far outweighs the extra
weight. If you'll pardon the expression.
At which point, I will resume smarming.

Post by Aaron
2. How dense? What is YOUR justification for your current thoughts?

Damn it, I wish I'd brought the right book today.

As I keep saying, even if cuendillar *does* become heavier it wouldn't
matter for the cannons.

Post by Aaron
Back to my point above: is there no value in fan discussions? Then,
what value your speculations about the cannons?

I want to know why Elayne didn't turn the cannons into cuendillar.
That would have been awesome, and clever. And I think she's a dork for
not doing it.
Therein lies the value, for me.
If the next book comes out and Sanderson says "Elayne had briefly
discussed the idea of making the cannons from cuendillar, but Aludra
concluded it was too difficult to get them the right shape and Egwene
said it was impossible because the cuendillium matrix would go
thermonuclear", then I will be satisfied and my criticisms will have
no value. Because no amount of fan speculation outweighs a single line
in the actual book.
I am questing for a "canon" pun here, but it's not coming to me.

Yes. You read poorly, it seems.

Spare the insults until you have citations.
Not because I think you're wrong, but there is always a chance you
will look a real tit if nothing shows up. You know, like I will look
if something *does* show up.
I mean, I'll still be right overall, but that's scant comfort when I
look a tit.

Or try to fill in missing pieces. How about that?

Okay. Fill in missing pieces with made-up stuff. If you can do it,
theoretically, so can I. Just saying.
But we're not talking about filling in missing pieces. These are
elements that you say are *in the story*. And as long as they are,
then we have no problem.

Please do. Like I said, I see no reward in searching a book for
something you think exists but which I do not, only to be accused of
laziness or dishonesty when I turn up nothing.

Lazy, dishonest shite that you are.

Seriously. I'm glad you're not trying to deny that this is how it
would play out.

Geez, was I swearing the whole proof was in the books?

Yes. That's the source of this argument.

Post by Aaron
Though I
thought it was, I did expect that other rational discourse might serve
as some proof. No?

I see no rational discourse. "Almost all the other online debates I
have seen about this agree that cuendillar is totally heavy" is not
rational discourse, even if you cited anything there, which you
didn't.
You haven't actually given any evidence at all. You've just said "it's
real, look it up, lots of people think so, look that up, if it's not
in the books then what random palookas from Butt-Fuck Idaho think
counts as proof, look those up".
Sorry, I don't value that as much as I should. Probably because I have
spent so many years bullshitting on this forum and I don't consider my
bullshit to outweigh canon - or even to really fill the gaps in canon.
--
Although if that's the argument we're going with, I can get behind it.
It'll guarantee a win for the 10-99 crowd at last.

Has anyone ever told you that you talk too much?

OK, I agree with most of what you said, smarm and all. I didn't bring
the book today, will tomorrow. Good luck in your searching, probably
going on right now.

-Aaron

Chucky & Janica

2011-01-20 20:22:29 UTC

Post by Aaron
Has anyone ever told you that you talk too much?

It's very rude to not give my effort the consideration it deserves.
But I have gone and done some of your homework for you.

Post by Aaron
OK, I agree with most of what you said, smarm and all. I didn't bring
the book today, will tomorrow. Good luck in your searching, probably
going on right now.

Indeed.

I looked through Crossroads of Twilight, and it's not looking good for
you.

First: Egwene was Green Ajah, or at least planned to be. Weren't you
arguing that she planned to be Blue and this was some problem with
Sanderson's storytelling? CoT, A Chat With Suian, page 447 in the
hardcover we have:

"Maybe she did think of herself as a Green, or as having been one,
which was silly. The Amyrlin was of all Ajahs and none - she adjusted
the stole on her shoulders, reminding herself of the fact represented
by those seven stripes - and she had never belonged to one in the
first place. Yet she did feel a - not fondness; that was too strong -
a sense of sameness between herself and Green sisters."

Second: So far it looks like all the bits and bobs the Aes Sedai are
doing cuendillar experiments on were iron, or at least metal. CoT,
Secrets, page 429 in our hardcover:

"Kairen and Ashmanaille turned, too, the Blue even letting her weaves
go so the goblet bounced on the tabletop with a metallic clatter."

Page 433:

"'Yesterday, she and Althyn Conly tried two items at once, just to see
what would happen, and the things fused together in a solid lump.
Useless for sale, of course, unless you find someone who wants a pair
of half-iron, half-cuendillar cups joined at angles.'"

I didn't find the actual scene where Egwene converted something for
the first time yet, I even leafed through Winter's Heart a bit.

So there, I went to some effort that, considering the flaws in your
memory so far and the insulting way you responded to my doubts about
Egwene's Ajah, the cuendillar cups, and so on, I don't think you
deserved.

C&J

Aaron

2011-01-20 21:33:34 UTC

Post by Aaron
Has anyone ever told you that you talk too much?

It's very rude to not give my effort the consideration it deserves.

*considers*

Happy?

I was overwhelmed with the yelling and smarming, sorry ;D

Post by Chucky & Janica
But I have gone and done some of your homework for you.

Post by Aaron
OK, I agree with most of what you said, smarm and all. I didn't bring
the book today, will tomorrow. Good luck in your searching, probably
going on right now.

That's not what she thought back when she was first raised Amyrlin.
Let's not forget, RJ was a very sick man at this point.

Post by Chucky & Janica
Second: So far it looks like all the bits and bobs the Aes Sedai are
doing cuendillar experiments on were iron, or at least metal. CoT,
"Kairen and Ashmanaille turned, too, the Blue even letting her weaves
go so the goblet bounced on the tabletop with a metallic clatter."

Do you think it was an iron goblet? If not, you have revised your
opinion to "metal", which is quite different than "iron".

Post by Chucky & Janica
"'Yesterday, she and Althyn Conly tried two items at once, just to see
what would happen, and the things fused together in a solid lump.
Useless for sale, of course, unless you find someone who wants a pair
of half-iron, half-cuendillar cups joined at angles.'"
I didn't find the actual scene where Egwene converted something for
the first time yet, I even leafed through Winter's Heart a bit.
So there, I went to some effort that, considering the flaws in your
memory so far and the insulting way you responded to my doubts about
Egwene's Ajah, the cuendillar cups, and so on, I don't think you
deserved.

Thanks, that's a lot of what I was going to look up.

Except for the justification behind the harbor chain...I'd still like
to see that text, and will find it tomorrow if you don't before then.
If it was made of steel instead of iron, would they have been screwed?
What about rust? That's a different composition...

I'm interested how you decided cuendillar is ONLY made from iron.
Where did you get that particular impression?

I'd ask for a cite but that would seem rude.

Post by Chucky & Janica
C&J

-Aaron

Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom

2011-01-21 06:56:33 UTC

Post by Chucky & Janica
"Maybe she did think of herself as a Green, or as having been one,
which was silly. The Amyrlin was of all Ajahs and none - she adjusted
the stole on her shoulders, reminding herself of the fact represented
by those seven stripes - and she had never belonged to one in the
first place. Yet she did feel a - not fondness; that was too strong -
a sense of sameness between herself and Green sisters."

That's not what she thought back when she was first raised Amyrlin.
Let's not forget, RJ was a very sick man at this point.

Back up this claim with a quote, like I have, or show a little dignity
and just admit you were wrong. Sanderson did not fuck this up, he was
consistent at least with the latter books written by Jordan where
Egwene shows affinity with the Green, not the Blue. And I would argue
that she has done so all along.

To prove otherwise, you need to provide a quote showing the same
affinity and fellow feeling for the Blue Ajah. Good luck there.

Do you think it was an iron goblet? If not, you have revised your
opinion to "metal", which is quite different than "iron".

Yes I think it was iron, because the other quote I gave you said
"iron", and that means all the things the Aes Sedai have made into
cuendillar, at least to my recollection and supported by actual
citations (*none* of which you have provided yet yourself), were iron.

I mean, he wasn't going to say "bounced on the tabletop with an irony
clatter." That would just have confused you and maybe made you think
the goblet was made out of fish or something.

You: "ONLY from iron? What? So the teacups etc. that the rebels were
turning into cuendillar, those were IRON teacups? Weird. You might
wish to reread (or read?) that part of the book."

*raises eyebrow*

After you. Aaron.

Post by Aaron
Except for the justification behind the harbor chain...I'd still like
to see that text, and will find it tomorrow if you don't before then.

I didn't see it, although I read the scene where she converts the
chain (the only reference to its weight, incidentally, was that each
link was two paces long and would have required two men to lift it,
and that was before she converted it) and gets captured, and then read
backwards from there to find the other scenes. The justification, as
near as I could see, was what I believed the justification to be
before: when converting two items together, they fuse. Egwene took
this lesson from the cups in the above quote, and applied it to the
harbour gates.

Funnily, I don't think Egwene has done anything about the chain yet,
since moving into Tar Valon. Are they eating gateway-delivered weevils
right now, or what?

Post by Aaron
If it was made of steel instead of iron, would they have been screwed?

I don't think they would have wasted steel on a chain that big, for
that purpose.

Post by Aaron
What about rust? That's a different composition...

It really didn't say. All it said was that Egwene converted it into
cuendillar. So we can speculate about that if you like. I think you're
just embarrassing yourself again though.

The point is that the evidence of the books so far points to only iron
being converted to cuendillar as far as Egwene has been able to figure
out, and cuendillar not being any heavier after the conversion. If you
like, we can agree that if there is nothing about the weight at all,
then it can become heavier or it can remain the same weight or it can
become lighter, and our opinions are equally valid. You, however, said
there was evidence for the weight increasing, so please provide it.

I would have thought that if cuendillar was unusually heavy, it would
have been mentioned in reference to the seals, for example, or the
other little cuendillar objects we see from time to time. I don't
remember any mention of them being "heavier than a small object had
any right to be" or "unusually heavy" or indeed anything of the sort,
and fantasy stories usually lap that shit up. Cuendillar is
invincible. It's white. That's about all we know about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuendillar#Cuendillar

Cuendillar

Pronounced CWAIN-de-yar, cuendillar is also known as heartstone,
and is an
indestructible substance created during the Age of Legends. It
absorbs any force
attempting to break it and becomes stronger itself. Cuendillar is
the material
used to make the seals to the Dark One's prison, and a number of
other artifacts
are made from it. As with the art of creating angreal and
ter'angreal, the way to
create cuendillar had been lost over time until Egwene al'Vere
was able to
reconstruct the weave for making cuendillar from iron. She has
had some limited
success in teaching other Aes Sedai as it seems the weave
requires strength in
Earth which many females lack.

Although once indestructible, the seals of cuendillar that formed
the Dark One's
prison have become so weakened from the strain that it is now
possible to cut
slivers from them with a simple knife, or for them to shatter
from a fall.

Wikipedia seems to bear me out here, so I must be right.

Post by Aaron
I'm interested how you decided cuendillar is ONLY made from iron.
Where did you get that particular impression?

From the fact that they only do it with iron objects. And, as I am the
only person in this debate actually backing up my opinion with quotes,
you're just going to have to suck it up.

Post by Aaron
I'd ask for a cite but that would seem rude.

Not to mention spectacularly thick.

***@w
--
Cuendillar fish. I want one.

Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom

2011-01-21 08:38:48 UTC

Post by Aaron
Except for the justification behind the harbor chain...I'd still like
to see that text, and will find it tomorrow if you don't before then.

I didn't see it, although I read the scene where she converts the
chain (the only reference to its weight, incidentally, was that each
link was two paces long and would have required two men to lift it,
and that was before she converted it) and gets captured, and then read
backwards from there to find the other scenes. The justification, as
near as I could see, was what I believed the justification to be
before: when converting two items together, they fuse. Egwene took
this lesson from the cups in the above quote, and applied it to the
harbour gates.
Funnily, I don't think Egwene has done anything about the chain yet,
since moving into Tar Valon. Are they eating gateway-delivered weevils
right now, or what?

Follow-up on this.

It's been said that opening a gateway and trying to cut a piece of
cuendillar would just result in the cuendillar being pushed aside. I
wonder what would happen if they tried to make a gateway next to this
big old cuendillar sea-gate (or river-gate, I guess in Tar Valon's
case)?

There's a "pushed aside" I would like to see.

***@w
--
Of course, that'd fuck up the harbour pretty good.

Aaron

2011-01-21 15:17:15 UTC

Well I feel sheepish! Cuendillar to you, my friend...total disarmament
on my part. Good job with the research. It seems the less I write, the
more you do and write, so in theory, if I went away, you would type
endlessly on this NG!

I would be embarrassed, but I had the applicable organ removed. Too
annoying.

That's not what she thought back when she was first raised Amyrlin.
Let's not forget, RJ was a very sick man at this point.

I agree, and this is not news to me, that there has been a remarkable
amount of "Green Ajah" association with Egwene's name. Her statements
to the Aiel wise women, the rumors about her as Amyrlin, and even some
speculation from her in later books and in early books (see below).
That all changed, in my recollection, when she fell in love with
Gawyn. Just as Elayne thought to herself "well, I HAVE to be Green
now, having bonded Birgitte, because I am also going to bond Rand" (or
somesuch logic).

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
To prove otherwise, you need to provide a quote showing the same
affinity and fellow feeling for the Blue Ajah. Good luck there.

OK. You know what? Let's have another discussion because I think those
help.

I recall a discussion among Elayne, Egwene, and Nynaeve in the white
tower, probably book 1 or 2, where they discuss which Ajah they will
choose. Nynaeve says Yellow, of course. E & E both say Green, in a
very silly "I love boys" kind of way.

So yes, initially Egwene did choose Green. Remember that discussion?

Egwene also told the Aiel she was a Green Ajah Aes Sedai. The later
quotes you found also discuss her as Green, also do the rumors when
she is raised.

But do you seriously not remember this part as I do: when she realized
she loves Gawyn, and couldn't have any other warder, and when Siuan
trains her and when she realizes how she likes Sheriam, she thinks
that she probably would have chosen the Blue Ajah instead of the
Green?

I recall it especially because it made sense to me. She's more cause-
driven than Elayne, and she's much less of an airhead about liking
boys.

I will indeed try to find this section, probably in LoC. I can already
see, from my search on that WOT book search site, that this will be
very difficult. Trying to avoid a reread, and to avoid looking
everywhere her name is mentioned.

So this might take some time.

That said, I do retract my criticism of Sanderson about Egwene's Ajah
thoughts in the last 2 books. There is a preponderance of "Egwene Aes
Sedai of the Green Ajah" throughout the books, and some in Egwene's
own statements, at least early on, so I shouldn't have picked on that.
I was just cruising through the book and it hit me.

Because of the stand-out section I recall where she thought of why
she'd choose the Blue, not the Green, as I mentioned above.

So. To be continued.

Do you think it was an iron goblet? If not, you have revised your
opinion to "metal", which is quite different than "iron".

Yes I think it was iron, because the other quote I gave you said
"iron", and that means all the things the Aes Sedai have made into
cuendillar, at least to my recollection and supported by actual
citations (*none* of which you have provided yet yourself), were iron.
I mean, he wasn't going to say "bounced on the tabletop with an irony
clatter." That would just have confused you and maybe made you think
the goblet was made out of fish or something.

Waah. I don't wanna!

Post by Aaron
Except for the justification behind the harbor chain...I'd still like
to see that text, and will find it tomorrow if you don't before then.

You are probably right. I will just accede that you are right, and
that I added other reasoning based on previous assumptions (see
below). We discussed cuendillar so much, while knowing so little, I
failed to throw out that discussion when more information was finally
provided. Basically.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Funnily, I don't think Egwene has done anything about the chain yet,
since moving into Tar Valon. Are they eating gateway-delivered weevils
right now, or what?

I think so. Or she's continued Elaida's chip-away-at-it plan.

Post by Aaron
If it was made of steel instead of iron, would they have been screwed?

I don't think they would have wasted steel on a chain that big, for
that purpose.

Post by Aaron
What about rust? That's a different composition...

It really didn't say. All it said was that Egwene converted it into
cuendillar. So we can speculate about that if you like. I think you're
just embarrassing yourself again though.
The point is that the evidence of the books so far points to only iron
being converted to cuendillar as far as Egwene has been able to figure
out, and cuendillar not being any heavier after the conversion. If you
like, we can agree that if there is nothing about the weight at all,
then it can become heavier or it can remain the same weight or it can
become lighter, and our opinions are equally valid. You, however, said
there was evidence for the weight increasing, so please provide it.
I would have thought that if cuendillar was unusually heavy, it would
have been mentioned in reference to the seals, for example, or the
other little cuendillar objects we see from time to time. I don't
remember any mention of them being "heavier than a small object had
any right to be" or "unusually heavy" or indeed anything of the sort,
and fantasy stories usually lap that shit up. Cuendillar is
invincible. It's white. That's about all we know about it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuendillar#Cuendillar
Cuendillar
Pronounced CWAIN-de-yar, cuendillar is also known as heartstone,
and is an
indestructible substance created during the Age of Legends. It
absorbs any force
attempting to break it and becomes stronger itself. Cuendillar is
the material
used to make the seals to the Dark One's prison, and a number of
other artifacts
are made from it. As with the art of creating angreal and
ter'angreal, the way to
create cuendillar had been lost over time until Egwene al'Vere
was able to
reconstruct the weave for making cuendillar from iron. She has
had some limited
success in teaching other Aes Sedai as it seems the weave
requires strength in
Earth which many females lack.
Although once indestructible, the seals of cuendillar that formed
the Dark One's
prison have become so weakened from the strain that it is now
possible to cut
slivers from them with a simple knife, or for them to shatter
from a fall.
Wikipedia seems to bear me out here, so I must be right.

LOL

Post by Aaron
I'm interested how you decided cuendillar is ONLY made from iron.
Where did you get that particular impression?

From the fact that they only do it with iron objects. And, as I am the
only person in this debate actually backing up my opinion with quotes,
you're just going to have to suck it up.

Fair enough. I think this points to my problem with this cuendillar
discussion. We knew almost nothing about it until COT, which gave us a
long time to speculate as fans. I believe all the speculation, some
probably backed up in obscure ways by canon from the books, took
preeminent position in my understanding of cuendillar. Maybe just
mine.

Then, when RJ tried to introduce more facts about cuendillar, perhaps
I skimmed them or failed to see what he was telling us?

Ok, not "perhaps". It seems I DID fail to see what he was telling us.

And so thank you for edumacating me.

Post by Aaron
I'd ask for a cite but that would seem rude.

Not to mention spectacularly thick.

Well, I do have that reputation to uphold.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
--
Cuendillar fish. I want one.

Can they be made from gummy fish, or just iron fish?

-Aaron

Chucky & Janica

2011-01-22 14:50:56 UTC

Post by Aaron
Well I feel sheepish! Cuendillar to you, my friend...total disarmament
on my part. Good job with the research. It seems the less I write, the
more you do and write, so in theory, if I went away, you would type
endlessly on this NG!

Thanks, it warms my heart.

Actually hats off to you as well, for actually getting me to give a
crap about debate again. Wouldn't have happened if you hadn't come
back.

Post by Aaron
I would be embarrassed, but I had the applicable organ removed. Too
annoying.

Maybe we went to the same guy for that.

Post by Aaron
That all changed, in my recollection, when she fell in love with
Gawyn. Just as Elayne thought to herself "well, I HAVE to be Green
now, having bonded Birgitte, because I am also going to bond Rand" (or
somesuch logic).

*nod*

Isn't the Green Ajah also the Battle Ajah? The wondergirls have always
had that sort of attitude, too.

Post by Aaron
OK. You know what? Let's have another discussion because I think those
help.

Right you are.

Post by Aaron
I recall a discussion among Elayne, Egwene, and Nynaeve in the white
tower, probably book 1 or 2, where they discuss which Ajah they will
choose. Nynaeve says Yellow, of course. E & E both say Green, in a
very silly "I love boys" kind of way.
So yes, initially Egwene did choose Green. Remember that discussion?

Hmm, I'm trying to remember all the girls actually in the Tower, I'm
not sure. But yeah, that makes sense.

I think I will re-read the whole series before the last book comes
out. Or before I read it, anyway.

Post by Aaron
But do you seriously not remember this part as I do: when she realized
she loves Gawyn, and couldn't have any other warder, and when Siuan
trains her and when she realizes how she likes Sheriam, she thinks
that she probably would have chosen the Blue Ajah instead of the
Green?

I thought Sheriam was a Green Ajah too. Or was it just that she had
green eyes?

Post by Aaron
I recall it especially because it made sense to me. She's more cause-
driven than Elayne, and she's much less of an airhead about liking
boys.

Well, I don't remember it. Siuan would naturally have considered
Egwene as being suited to Siuan's Ajah, though, because Siuan thought
Egwene was "the right stuff". And she was right about that - just
wrong about the Ajah thing. As it happened, Egwene never had to pick a
colour.

Post by Aaron
Because of the stand-out section I recall where she thought of why
she'd choose the Blue, not the Green, as I mentioned above.
So. To be continued.

I'll be here.

Waah. I don't wanna!

It's not so bad once you wipe the dust off.

Post by Aaron
I'm interested how you decided cuendillar is ONLY made from iron.
Where did you get that particular impression?

From the fact that they only do it with iron objects. And, as I am the
only person in this debate actually backing up my opinion with quotes,
you're just going to have to suck it up.

I'm saddened that I must have ignored all that speculation (about
cuendillar at least, because Janica is sniding at me about the various
speculation I have done in my time...). My speculation has always been
ruined by a need to have it backed up by actual stuff in the books,
although that of course operates on a sliding scale depending on how
desperate I am to keep a little bit of interest in a promising
character who I think the author is ruining, Ishamael.

Post by Aaron
And so thank you for edumacating me.

*bows, with boltcutters*

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Cuendillar fish. I want one.

Can they be made from gummy fish, or just iron fish?

Mmmm. Gummydillar. It gets gummier the more you chew it.

C&J

Also, heavier.

Aaron

2011-01-22 19:50:34 UTC

Thanks, it warms my heart.
Actually hats off to you as well, for actually getting me to give a
crap about debate again. Wouldn't have happened if you hadn't come
back.

*puffs out chest*

Post by Aaron
I would be embarrassed, but I had the applicable organ removed. Too
annoying.

Maybe we went to the same guy for that.

He doesn't charge anything. Sound like the same guy?

*nod*
Isn't the Green Ajah also the Battle Ajah? The wondergirls have always
had that sort of attitude, too.

Yeah. But even so Nyn must be Yellah.

Post by Aaron
OK. You know what? Let's have another discussion because I think those
help.

Right you are.

Hmm, I'm trying to remember all the girls actually in the Tower, I'm
not sure. But yeah, that makes sense.

I know that confab happened.

Post by Chucky & Janica
I think I will re-read the whole series before the last book comes
out. Or before I read it, anyway.

I think I will shed a tear for you.

I thought Sheriam was a Green Ajah too. Or was it just that she had
green eyes?

Green eyes, blue ajah. I've had HER ajah confirmed several times in my
reading. Egwene states it, and comments on her blue stole several
times.

Post by Aaron
I recall it especially because it made sense to me. She's more cause-
driven than Elayne, and she's much less of an airhead about liking
boys.

Right. But I really think this was Egwene's though process. If not,
I'm screwed, because Siuan's POVs are elsewhere.

Post by Aaron
Because of the stand-out section I recall where she thought of why
she'd choose the Blue, not the Green, as I mentioned above.
So. To be continued.

I'll be here.

Well, it's not in LoC or CoS. It might correspond to a reaction to
Elaida's disbanding of the Green, which would make it PoD or WH,
probably. Does that alternative sound familiar to you, or still no?

Waah. I don't wanna!

It's not so bad once you wipe the dust off.

*sneezes*

I can see that now. Having gone through 2 books now for the moment I
seek, I'm getting used to it. But annoyed as well.

Post by Aaron
I'm interested how you decided cuendillar is ONLY made from iron.
Where did you get that particular impression?

From the fact that they only do it with iron objects. And, as I am the
only person in this debate actually backing up my opinion with quotes,
you're just going to have to suck it up.

I'm glad you can sympathize.

Post by Aaron
And so thank you for edumacating me.

*bows, with boltcutters*

I think you're not supposed to do that..

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Cuendillar fish. I want one.

Can they be made from gummy fish, or just iron fish?

Mmmm. Gummydillar. It gets gummier the more you chew it.

The ultimate treat for those without teeth.

Post by Chucky & Janica
C&J
Also, heavier.

Cite!

Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom

2011-01-24 08:53:26 UTC

Post by Aaron
Well, it's not in LoC or CoS. It might correspond to a reaction to
Elaida's disbanding of the Green, which would make it PoD or WH,
probably. Does that alternative sound familiar to you, or still no?

...

Elaida disbanded the Blue. The BLUE.

Seriously.

C&J
--
Maybe you're Ajah-blind. Ever consider that?

Aaron

2011-01-24 13:40:48 UTC

...
Elaida disbanded the Blue. The BLUE.
Seriously.
C&J
--
Maybe you're Ajah-blind. Ever consider that?

Just a brain fart. The disbanding of the blue makes more sense in my
comment, if you think about it.

Care to respond to the rest?

-Aaron

Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom

2011-01-24 14:03:25 UTC

...
Elaida disbanded the Blue. The BLUE.
Seriously.
Maybe you're Ajah-blind. Ever consider that?

Just a brain fart. The disbanding of the blue makes more sense in my
comment, if you think about it.
Care to respond to the rest?

I went through the whole thing and that was all I found to respond
to ... I can take another look if you're feeling neglected.

***@w
--
Just as well I don't try to pull that sort of crap with my posts,
that's all I can say.

Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom

2011-01-24 14:22:40 UTC

Post by Aaron
I would be embarrassed, but I had the applicable organ removed. Too
annoying.

Maybe we went to the same guy for that.

He doesn't charge anything. Sound like the same guy?

Yeah, that's the dude. Although he did suggest he was going to implant
my embarrassment-gland-thing into the body of some British person to
make them extra embarrassed. So I think he was getting something out
of the transaction.

Plus, he acknowledged the futility of trying to get a person with a
removed embarrassment-gland-thing to pay for the operation.

*nod*
Isn't the Green Ajah also the Battle Ajah? The wondergirls have always
had that sort of attitude, too.

Yeah. But even so Nyn must be Yellah.

Obviously. She was into the whole Healing thing right from the start.

Hmm, I'm trying to remember all the girls actually in the Tower, I'm
not sure. But yeah, that makes sense.

I know that confab happened.

Not sure what you want me to say here. I couldn't possibly care less
whether it did or not, since it seems to have little to do with
anything.

I thought Sheriam was a Green Ajah too. Or was it just that she had
green eyes?

Green eyes, blue ajah. I've had HER ajah confirmed several times in my
reading. Egwene states it, and comments on her blue stole several
times.

Right.

Post by Aaron
I recall it especially because it made sense to me. She's more cause-
driven than Elayne, and she's much less of an airhead about liking
boys.

Right. But I really think this was Egwene's though process. If not,
I'm screwed, because Siuan's POVs are elsewhere.

I don't remember anything about Egwene thinking of herself as Blue, at
any point. That's all I have.

I'm sorry I can't help you with your case here. Frankly I'm not sure
why you're trying to build one anyway. Other than the fact that you
put down such a solid foundation of "I damn well remember this" so it
seems a shame not to build *something*.

Post by Aaron
Because of the stand-out section I recall where she thought of why
she'd choose the Blue, not the Green, as I mentioned above.
So. To be continued.

I'll be here.

Well, it's not in LoC or CoS. It might correspond to a reaction to
Elaida's disbanding of the Green, which would make it PoD or WH,
probably. Does that alternative sound familiar to you, or still no?

(Green --> Blue)

Post by Aaron
Well, it's not in LoC or CoS. It might correspond to a reaction to
Elaida's disbanding of the Blue, which would make it PoD or WH,
probably. Does that alternative sound familiar to you, or still no?

...

What? What are you waiting for from me here? No, I still can't recall
Egwene thinking that she would have chosen the Blue. If she heard that
Elaida had disbanded the Blue Ajah and thought to herself "boy, that's
silly, and I wanted to be Blue Ajah, too", then that would be
something.

This? This is nothing.

I think Egwene reacted the way most of the rebels (and probably the
Tower Aes Sedai as well) did when they heard about Elaida disbanding
the Blue Ajah. She rolled her eyes and thought that Elaida was going
too far, that it was madness and it would cause even more destruciton
and strife, and that no Amyrlin - certainly not one with such a shaky
position as Elaida's - would have dared to actually disband an Ajah.
Or something like that.

About the same as the way everyone reacted when Elaida started to have
a giant palace built that was supposed to be taller than the White
Tower. She was an embarrassment to everybody.

Post by Aaron
I can see that now. Having gone through 2 books now for the moment I
seek, I'm getting used to it. But annoyed as well.

Well, let me know if you find anything, I'm still open to the idea
that I missed something.

Post by Chucky & Janica
I'm saddened that I must have ignored all that speculation (about
cuendillar at least, because Janica is sniding at me about the various
speculation I have done in my time...). My speculation has always been
ruined by a need to have it backed up by actual stuff in the books,
although that of course operates on a sliding scale depending on how
desperate I am to keep a little bit of interest in a promising
character who I think the author is ruining, Ishamael.

I'm glad you can sympathize.

I tend not to think of cuendillar's invincibility as a function of
density / weight, even for the purposes of speculation. Best to go
with what we actually know, which as you say, leading up to the last
couple of books wasn't much.

The problem with the science-type speculation as opposed to the magic-
type canon, is that for cuendillar's toughness to be related to
density, it would need infinite density. Or, at the very least, it
would need to become more dense with every action against it, so
whenever somebody tried to break a piece of cuendillar, it would get
heavier as well as harder.

I just don't buy that, because I certainly don't remember seeing
references to cuendillar getting heavier as it was strained. Or some
cuendillar objects being heavier than others.

To be honest, I don't recall seeing anything about its weight, on
conversion or after, anywhere in the books. So feel free to speculate,
but I will speculate that it is jut as heavy as cuendillar, which
isn't all that heavy at all. Possibly as heavy as iron, maybe as heavy
as porcelain or glass which is how I always thought of it in terms of
consistency.

Certainly not too heavy to make the cannons a good idea. And like I
said (and was ignored, boo hoo), the fusing might actually make them
easier.

***@w
--
There you go. Did I get everything?

Aaron

2011-01-24 19:14:50 UTC

Post by Aaron
I would be embarrassed, but I had the applicable organ removed. Too
annoying.

Maybe we went to the same guy for that.

He doesn't charge anything. Sound like the same guy?

Yeah, that's the dude. Although he did suggest he was going to implant
my embarrassment-gland-thing into the body of some British person to
make them extra embarrassed. So I think he was getting something out
of the transaction.
Plus, he acknowledged the futility of trying to get a person with a
removed embarrassment-gland-thing to pay for the operation.

*nod*
Isn't the Green Ajah also the Battle Ajah? The wondergirls have always
had that sort of attitude, too.

Yeah. But even so Nyn must be Yellah.

Obviously. She was into the whole Healing thing right from the start.

Hmm, I'm trying to remember all the girls actually in the Tower, I'm
not sure. But yeah, that makes sense.

I know that confab happened.

Not sure what you want me to say here. I couldn't possibly care less
whether it did or not, since it seems to have little to do with
anything.

I thought Sheriam was a Green Ajah too. Or was it just that she had
green eyes?

Green eyes, blue ajah. I've had HER ajah confirmed several times in my
reading. Egwene states it, and comments on her blue stole several
times.

Right.

Post by Aaron
I recall it especially because it made sense to me. She's more cause-
driven than Elayne, and she's much less of an airhead about liking
boys.

Right. But I really think this was Egwene's though process. If not,
I'm screwed, because Siuan's POVs are elsewhere.

I don't remember anything about Egwene thinking of herself as Blue, at
any point. That's all I have.
I'm sorry I can't help you with your case here. Frankly I'm not sure
why you're trying to build one anyway. Other than the fact that you
put down such a solid foundation of "I damn well remember this" so it
seems a shame not to build *something*.

Post by Aaron
Because of the stand-out section I recall where she thought of why
she'd choose the Blue, not the Green, as I mentioned above.
So. To be continued.

I'll be here.

Well, it's not in LoC or CoS. It might correspond to a reaction to
Elaida's disbanding of the Green, which would make it PoD or WH,
probably. Does that alternative sound familiar to you, or still no?

(Green --> Blue)

...
What? What are you waiting for from me here? No, I still can't recall
Egwene thinking that she would have chosen the Blue. If she heard that
Elaida had disbanded the Blue Ajah and thought to herself "boy, that's
silly, and I wanted to be Blue Ajah, too", then that would be
something.
This? This is nothing.
I think Egwene reacted the way most of the rebels (and probably the
Tower Aes Sedai as well) did when they heard about Elaida disbanding
the Blue Ajah. She rolled her eyes and thought that Elaida was going
too far, that it was madness and it would cause even more destruciton
and strife, and that no Amyrlin - certainly not one with such a shaky
position as Elaida's - would have dared to actually disband an Ajah.
Or something like that.
About the same as the way everyone reacted when Elaida started to have
a giant palace built that was supposed to be taller than the White
Tower. She was an embarrassment to everybody.

Post by Aaron
I can see that now. Having gone through 2 books now for the moment I
seek, I'm getting used to it. But annoyed as well.

Well, let me know if you find anything, I'm still open to the idea
that I missed something.

I'm glad you can sympathize.

I tend not to think of cuendillar's invincibility as a function of
density / weight, even for the purposes of speculation. Best to go
with what we actually know, which as you say, leading up to the last
couple of books wasn't much.
The problem with the science-type speculation as opposed to the magic-
type canon, is that for cuendillar's toughness to be related to
density, it would need infinite density. Or, at the very least, it
would need to become more dense with every action against it, so
whenever somebody tried to break a piece of cuendillar, it would get
heavier as well as harder.
I just don't buy that, because I certainly don't remember seeing
references to cuendillar getting heavier as it was strained. Or some
cuendillar objects being heavier than others.
To be honest, I don't recall seeing anything about its weight, on
conversion or after, anywhere in the books. So feel free to speculate,
but I will speculate that it is jut as heavy as cuendillar, which
isn't all that heavy at all. Possibly as heavy as iron, maybe as heavy
as porcelain or glass which is how I always thought of it in terms of
consistency.
Certainly not too heavy to make the cannons a good idea. And like I
said (and was ignored, boo hoo), the fusing might actually make them
easier.
--
There you go. Did I get everything?

Yeah.

*moves on*

...

Yes, I'm pissed you didn't assume "Green" was an error (vs. a
misunderstanding) and respond with this the first time.

-Aaron, no further in my search to prove that, at one time, RJ said
Egwene would have chosen the Blue, knowing full well she said "Green"
about 10 times elsewhere.

;P

Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom

2011-01-25 06:40:43 UTC

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
There you go. Did I get everything?

Yeah.
*moves on*
...
Yes, I'm pissed you didn't assume "Green" was an error (vs. a
misunderstanding) and respond with this the first time.

And you wonder why I don't go to the bother of responding to your
posts in full? I'm the injured party here, princess. Not you.

Given the fact that you seem to be mixing the Green Ajah and the Blue
Ajah up every time you talk about Egwene, why would I assume you just
typed it by accident rather than mixing them up again? Fool me five
times, shame on me.

***@w
--
At least now I don't need to respond to your posts in full anymore.

Hmph.

David DeLaney

2011-01-25 07:40:56 UTC

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Given the fact that you seem to be mixing the Green Ajah and the Blue
Ajah up every time you talk about Egwene, why would I assume you just
typed it by accident rather than mixing them up again? Fool me five
times, shame on me.

If the Aes Sedai are all wimmim, why isn't there a TEAL Ajah? And Tomato, Sea
Glass, Camel, Ivory, Sunflower, and Royal Blue?

Dave "not to mention Cinnamon or Storm Heather" DeLaney

Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom

2011-01-25 08:36:50 UTC

If the Aes Sedai are all wimmim, why isn't there a TEAL Ajah? And Tomato,
Sea Glass, Camel, Ivory, Sunflower, and Royal Blue?
Dave "not to mention Cinnamon or Storm Heather" DeLaney

It's a good point. Maybe Jordan thought that would be sexist.

***@w
--
*poker face*

Aaron

2011-01-25 15:53:22 UTC

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
There you go. Did I get everything?

Yeah.
*moves on*
...
Yes, I'm pissed you didn't assume "Green" was an error (vs. a
misunderstanding) and respond with this the first time.

And you wonder why I don't go to the bother of responding to your
posts in full? I'm the injured party here, princess. Not you.

Horseshit. I'm WAY more offended than you are.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Given the fact that you seem to be mixing the Green Ajah and the Blue
Ajah up every time you talk about Egwene,

I'm not "mixing" anything up, I'm just disagreeing that Egwene
currently considers herself "Green". Because of something I'm trying
to find, that I think I read.

And because it makes sense. Egwene is more a "causes" sort of woman,
whereas Elayne is just a randy bitch.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
why would I assume you just
typed it by accident rather than mixing them up again? Fool me five
times, shame on me.

Can't get fooled again?

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
--
At least now I don't need to respond to your posts in full anymore.

You will anyways. Because you're lonely.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Hmph.

Stop tugging your braid.

-Aaron

Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom

2011-01-26 08:22:13 UTC

Post by Aaron
Yes, I'm pissed you didn't assume "Green" was an error (vs. a
misunderstanding) and respond with this the first time.

And you wonder why I don't go to the bother of responding to your
posts in full? I'm the injured party here, princess. Not you.

Horseshit. I'm WAY more offended than you are.

Which just shows what a sensitive little petal you are.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Given the fact that you seem to be mixing the Green Ajah and the Blue
Ajah up every time you talk about Egwene,

I'm not "mixing" anything up, I'm just disagreeing that Egwene
currently considers herself "Green". Because of something I'm trying
to find, that I think I read.
And because it makes sense. Egwene is more a "causes" sort of woman,
whereas Elayne is just a randy bitch.

Fine. If you ever manage to prove that, you can come back to this and
I will ... what? Apologise for not giving you the benefit of the doubt
when you already thought Sanderson made a mistake saying Egwene
identified with the Green Ajah instead of the Blue Ajah, then said
"Green" when you meant "Blue" in another part of the discussion?

Why would I assume you remembered Elaida's choice of Ajahs to disband
correctly, and just made some sort of typo, when you already fucked
them up before?

Sure, go. Find evidence that Egwene ever picked the Blue Ajah. Then
come back here and get all pissy about me correcting you. And,
incidentally, whining that I should address your whole post, and then
not responding to any of my points when I did.

Holy *shit*, you're a crybaby.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
why would I assume you just
typed it by accident rather than mixing them up again? Fool me five
times, shame on me.

Can't get fooled again?

Quite.

***@w
--
Hanky? *offers*

Aaron

2011-01-26 12:51:35 UTC

Post by Aaron
Yes, I'm pissed you didn't assume "Green" was an error (vs. a
misunderstanding) and respond with this the first time.

And you wonder why I don't go to the bother of responding to your
posts in full? I'm the injured party here, princess. Not you.

Horseshit. I'm WAY more offended than you are.

Which just shows what a sensitive little petal you are.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Given the fact that you seem to be mixing the Green Ajah and the Blue
Ajah up every time you talk about Egwene,

I'm not "mixing" anything up, I'm just disagreeing that Egwene
currently considers herself "Green". Because of something I'm trying
to find, that I think I read.
And because it makes sense. Egwene is more a "causes" sort of woman,
whereas Elayne is just a randy bitch.

Fine. If you ever manage to prove that, you can come back to this and
I will ... what? Apologise for not giving you the benefit of the doubt
when you already thought Sanderson made a mistake saying Egwene
identified with the Green Ajah instead of the Blue Ajah, then said
"Green" when you meant "Blue" in another part of the discussion?
Why would I assume you remembered Elaida's choice of Ajahs to disband
correctly, and just made some sort of typo, when you already fucked
them up before?
Sure, go. Find evidence that Egwene ever picked the Blue Ajah. Then
come back here and get all pissy about me correcting you. And,
incidentally, whining that I should address your whole post, and then
not responding to any of my points when I did.
Holy *shit*, you're a crybaby.

Yeah, about that. I apologize for being such a dick about "memory" and
all that shit. The right way to go about this would have been for me
to say:
"I dunno, I kind of remember something about cuendillar being heavier
than the source material, lemme go look. Does anyone else remember
this?"

...

And then shuffle through the books for a week or so...

...

it would have been the mature thing...

...

But that wouldn't have been much fun, would it?

-Aaron, hey, I'm a Toys'R'Us kid. Well, at least, I'm an Amazon.com
kid.

Steve

2011-01-27 01:20:46 UTC

Post by Aaron
Yes, I'm pissed you didn't assume "Green" was an error (vs. a
misunderstanding) and respond with this the first time.

And you wonder why I don't go to the bother of responding to your
posts in full? I'm the injured party here, princess. Not you.

Horseshit. I'm WAY more offended than you are.

Which just shows what a sensitive little petal you are.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Given the fact that you seem to be mixing the Green Ajah and the Blue
Ajah up every time you talk about Egwene,

I'm not "mixing" anything up, I'm just disagreeing that Egwene
currently considers herself "Green". Because of something I'm trying
to find, that I think I read.
And because it makes sense. Egwene is more a "causes" sort of woman,
whereas Elayne is just a randy bitch.

Fine. If you ever manage to prove that, you can come back to this and
I will ... what? Apologise for not giving you the benefit of the doubt
when you already thought Sanderson made a mistake saying Egwene
identified with the Green Ajah instead of the Blue Ajah, then said
"Green" when you meant "Blue" in another part of the discussion?
Why would I assume you remembered Elaida's choice of Ajahs to disband
correctly, and just made some sort of typo, when you already fucked
them up before?
Sure, go. Find evidence that Egwene ever picked the Blue Ajah. Then
come back here and get all pissy about me correcting you. And,
incidentally, whining that I should address your whole post, and then
not responding to any of my points when I did.
Holy *shit*, you're a crybaby.

Yeah, about that. I apologize for being such a dick about "memory" and
all that shit. The right way to go about this would have been for me
to say:
"I dunno, I kind of remember something about cuendillar being heavier
than the source material, lemme go look. Does anyone else remember
this?"

Just take your ginko viagra...it will help you remember what the fuck your
doing!

sk
...

And then shuffle through the books for a week or so...

...

it would have been the mature thing...

...

But that wouldn't have been much fun, would it?

-Aaron, hey, I'm a Toys'R'Us kid. Well, at least, I'm an Amazon.com
kid.

Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom

2011-01-27 12:51:42 UTC

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Fine. If you ever manage to prove that, you can come back to this and
I will ... what? Apologise for not giving you the benefit of the doubt
when you already thought Sanderson made a mistake saying Egwene
identified with the Green Ajah instead of the Blue Ajah, then said
"Green" when you meant "Blue" in another part of the discussion?
Why would I assume you remembered Elaida's choice of Ajahs to disband
correctly, and just made some sort of typo, when you already fucked
them up before?
Sure, go. Find evidence that Egwene ever picked the Blue Ajah. Then
come back here and get all pissy about me correcting you. And,
incidentally, whining that I should address your whole post, and then
not responding to any of my points when I did.
Holy *shit*, you're a crybaby.

Yeah, about that. I apologize for being such a dick about "memory" and
all that shit. The right way to go about this would have been for me
"I dunno, I kind of remember something about cuendillar being heavier
than the source material, lemme go look. Does anyone else remember
this?"
...
And then shuffle through the books for a week or so...
...
it would have been the mature thing...
...
But that wouldn't have been much fun, would it?

Yeah, but I, okay, but, no, fine, you ... yeah.

Shut up.

***@w
--
This way was better. Shook the dust off.

Steve

2011-01-27 01:19:29 UTC

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
There you go. Did I get everything?

Yeah.
*moves on*
...
Yes, I'm pissed you didn't assume "Green" was an error (vs. a
misunderstanding) and respond with this the first time.

And you wonder why I don't go to the bother of responding to your
posts in full? I'm the injured party here, princess. Not you.

Horseshit. I'm WAY more offended than you are.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Given the fact that you seem to be mixing the Green Ajah and the Blue
Ajah up every time you talk about Egwene,

I'm not "mixing" anything up, I'm just disagreeing that Egwene
currently considers herself "Green". Because of something I'm trying
to find, that I think I read.

Maybe because it's the "battle ajah" and she is getting ready to go to war?

sk

And because it makes sense. Egwene is more a "causes" sort of woman,
whereas Elayne is just a randy bitch.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
why would I assume you just
typed it by accident rather than mixing them up again? Fool me five
times, shame on me.

Can't get fooled again?

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
--
At least now I don't need to respond to your posts in full anymore.

You will anyways. Because you're lonely.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Hmph.

Stop tugging your braid.

-Aaron

Aaron

2011-01-27 16:34:05 UTC

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
There you go. Did I get everything?

Yeah.
*moves on*
...
Yes, I'm pissed you didn't assume "Green" was an error (vs. a
misunderstanding) and respond with this the first time.

And you wonder why I don't go to the bother of responding to your
posts in full? I'm the injured party here, princess. Not you.

Horseshit. I'm WAY more offended than you are.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Given the fact that you seem to be mixing the Green Ajah and the Blue
Ajah up every time you talk about Egwene,

So everyone should become Green Ajah now? =D

-Aaron

Post by Aaron
sk
And because it makes sense. Egwene is more a "causes" sort of woman,
whereas Elayne is just a randy bitch.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
why would I assume you just
typed it by accident rather than mixing them up again? Fool me five
times, shame on me.

Can't get fooled again?

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
--
At least now I don't need to respond to your posts in full anymore.

You will anyways. Because you're lonely.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Hmph.

Stop tugging your braid.
-Aaron

Aaron

2011-01-26 12:46:10 UTC

Thanks, it warms my heart.
Actually hats off to you as well, for actually getting me to give a
crap about debate again. Wouldn't have happened if you hadn't come
back.

Post by Aaron
I would be embarrassed, but I had the applicable organ removed. Too
annoying.

Maybe we went to the same guy for that.

*nod*
Isn't the Green Ajah also the Battle Ajah? The wondergirls have always
had that sort of attitude, too.

Post by Aaron
OK. You know what? Let's have another discussion because I think those
help.

Right you are.

Hmm, I'm trying to remember all the girls actually in the Tower, I'm
not sure. But yeah, that makes sense.
I think I will re-read the whole series before the last book comes
out. Or before I read it, anyway.

I thought Sheriam was a Green Ajah too. Or was it just that she had
green eyes?

Post by Aaron
I recall it especially because it made sense to me. She's more cause-
driven than Elayne, and she's much less of an airhead about liking
boys.

Post by Aaron
Because of the stand-out section I recall where she thought of why
she'd choose the Blue, not the Green, as I mentioned above.
So. To be continued.

I'll be here.

Waah. I don't wanna!

It's not so bad once you wipe the dust off.

Post by Aaron
I'm interested how you decided cuendillar is ONLY made from iron.
Where did you get that particular impression?

From the fact that they only do it with iron objects. And, as I am the
only person in this debate actually backing up my opinion with quotes,
you're just going to have to suck it up.

Post by Aaron
And so thank you for edumacating me.

*bows, with boltcutters*

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Cuendillar fish. I want one.

Can they be made from gummy fish, or just iron fish?

Mmmm. Gummydillar. It gets gummier the more you chew it.
C&J
Also, heavier.

Yanno...forget the lack of cuendillar armor as an argument that it
might be heavier...as you said, and as I had read and discussed
before, assembling it is tricky and counter-productive, or else making
it all of one piece makes it too inflexible to be useful.

But what would you propose as the major reason we find no cuendillar
swords, or shields? Before you mention advanced technology etc., don't
forget that we DO have power-wrought swords from prior ages. Those
would be as useless against advanced tech as cuendillar swords would
be, and yet, there they are.

I would think, especially, a cuendillar shield would be most useful.
And, unless it was too unwieldy, why weren't any made/found?

I'm sure there are other possible reasons, but weight would seem to be
the most likely one.

Or that RJ just didn't think about it. But let's try to find stronger
arguments than that.

-Aaron

Chucky & Janica

2011-02-06 12:11:55 UTC

Post by Aaron
Yanno...forget the lack of cuendillar armor as an argument that it
might be heavier...as you said, and as I had read and discussed
before, assembling it is tricky and counter-productive, or else making
it all of one piece makes it too inflexible to be useful.

*nod*

Post by Aaron
But what would you propose as the major reason we find no cuendillar
swords, or shields? Before you mention advanced technology etc., don't
forget that we DO have power-wrought swords from prior ages. Those
would be as useless against advanced tech as cuendillar swords would
be, and yet, there they are.

I thought I'd answered this, but clearly not.

Okay, so what do we have in terms of cuendillar? The Seals, and a
bunch of little artsy pieces that the Sea Folk hoard. Come to think of
it, aside from (presumably) cups and plates and the like, there's
nothing really practical made out of cuendillar. Imagine a mill stone
or at least the moving parts of a mill or a forge being made out of
cuendillar. They'd last way longer and be more reliable.

And yeah, swords and spears and various blades, not to mention hammers
etc. I really don't think the weight is going to be an issue for these
things, even if cuendillar *does* weigh more (and I still think it
doesn't).

So why did nobody make these things? Because if they did, then
presumably (being invincible) they would still be around, right? This
is essentially your question (and a good one, kudos, well done and so
on).

There are a couple of theoretical possibilities. One is that there
were a lot of these things made, and they were all lost in the
Breaking. Maybe they were all out with the people who were using them
(since they were practical items) rather than at home in a glass case
or stasis pod or whatever. So when the ground opened up and swallowed
the dudes, all their crap got swallowed too. And only the little
trinkets remained.

Another alternative is that they didn't make it. Not in the Age of
Legends, anyway. The one eyewitness we have from that time is the
admittedly unreliable Moghedien, but she was quite the learned Aes
Sedai type back then and she didn't know how to do it (unless she was
lying, and I'm not sure why she would). And in the War of the Shadow,
people were throwing around balefire like it was nerf-balls. Since
cuendillar is the only real defence against balefire, you'd think that
by the time the War of Shadow brought the Age of Legends to an end,
they'd be making cuendillar shields out of everything they could. But
they didn't, which makes me wonder if they *could*.

It's also fairly clear that Moghedien isn't the only Forsaken ignorant
of how to make cuendillar: none of the Forsaken have been making
cuendillar, which you would think they'd do rather than flailing
around with their useless metals and searching for stasis boxes and
stuff. And all those guys were pretty wise and learned back in the
day, so at least one of them should know. It's not as if it's a rare
and exceptional Talent: Egwene can do it fast because of her strength
in Earth, but pretty much all the Aes Sedai can do it too, albeit
slowly.

If cuendillar was made in some earlier time (perhaps Moridin's
"pinnacle of civilisation", since he never mentions the Age of
Legends), it might have been an ultimately peaceful and enlightened
part of the turning of the Wheel, when all they *made* with this new
wonder material was nice stuff to put on their mantelpieces.

Then, when the Wheel turned and the entire world changed, those things
were all that was left and when the Age of Legends brought
unpleasantness back into the universe, nobody remembered how that shit
was done because only Wolfbrothers knew how to do it or something, and
they were all gone too, along with the Portal Stone guys.

Post by Aaron
I would think, especially, a cuendillar shield would be most useful.
And, unless it was too unwieldy, why weren't any made/found?

This makes me wonder about the stuff they're experimenting with: cups
and necklaces and trinkets. Why not swords and shields? We'd get the
weight question answered then, pretty fast. What is Egwene up to?

So the question is not "why didn't the Age of Legends folk do it?",
but "why are the Third Age folk doing it?". It could be as simple as
the fact that they're Aes Sedai, and making weapons in that way is
just out of their mind-set. Wasn't one of their Oaths against making
weapons with the Power? I know another Oath was to not use the One
Power as a weapon *except against Shadowspawn*, but the one against
making weapons was pretty much no-exceptions. Which makes sense, if
you think about it because once you've made a weapon, it doesn't
matter if you say "this is to kill Trollocs" the whole way through the
forging - once done, it's done.

It occurred to me that the trinkets the Aes Sedai are making now are
the ones that are going to show up in the next turning of the Wheel
and be worth a fortune when the Sea Folk find them and start hoarding
them. That would be funny. They didn't make anything useful because a)
the Aes Sedai weren't allowed to; then b) when the Age of Legends came
around everyone had forgotten how to; and c) go to a).

Post by Aaron
I'm sure there are other possible reasons, but weight would seem to be
the most likely one.

It's about the *least* likely one from my point of view. And I just
played the circular time card.

Post by Aaron
Or that RJ just didn't think about it. But let's try to find stronger
arguments than that.

Something to do with him being fat?

C&J

David DeLaney

2011-02-06 14:22:14 UTC

Post by Chucky & Janica
So the question is not "why didn't the Age of Legends folk do it?",
but "why are the Third Age folk doing it?". It could be as simple as
the fact that they're Aes Sedai, and making weapons in that way is
just out of their mind-set. Wasn't one of their Oaths against making
weapons with the Power? I know another Oath was to not use the One
Power as a weapon *except against Shadowspawn*, but the one against
making weapons was pretty much no-exceptions. Which makes sense, if
you think about it because once you've made a weapon, it doesn't
matter if you say "this is to kill Trollocs" the whole way through the
forging - once done, it's done.

Well, it did have one honking big exception: "for one man to kill another".
So if you can make your weapon so that either it can't ever hurt women
(difficult but there's probably some way to do it with the Power), or only
a woman can use it (trivially easy, make it only open up into weapon status
if the wielder is using saidar in certain ways on it), then you're fine.

Dave "or both, of course" DeLaney

David DeLaney

2011-02-06 14:22:52 UTC

Post by David DeLaney
Well, it did have one honking big exception: "for one man to kill another".
So if you can make your weapon so that either it can't ever hurt women

aaargh, can't ever hurt MEN

Post by David DeLaney
(difficult but there's probably some way to do it with the Power), or only
a woman can use it (trivially easy, make it only open up into weapon status
if the wielder is using saidar in certain ways on it), then you're fine.
Dave "or both, of course" DeLaney

Dave "hat == confusion" DeLaney

Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom

2011-02-07 10:13:59 UTC

Yeah - so, too difficult.

***@w
--
Am now imagining tampon-based cuendillar weapons of mass destruction.

Contro

2011-08-13 10:28:26 UTC

Okay, I've no idea what's going on, but I'm testing out Modzilla
Thunderbird here, instead of Windows Mail.

And it has the > in there, so that's a great start!

I will try to get back into the group again. You know what I'm like.

But things are promising! Thunderbird seems good, and it has a nice
name too.

In the meantime, I need to get a haircut!

I'll hope to catch up on the plot holes shortly.

Still reading Dance With Dragons...if Martin uses the phrase "must
needs" one more time, I will implode and be reduced to a bag of hamsters.

Contro.

Post by Lord Fiddleshits Cuntbottom
Hold on a second, why did Elayne get all excited and go rushing off to
hire all the highly-expensive and skilled bellfounders in the city to
make cannons? Why worry about the precise measurements and quality
metal at all?
Did she forget that Egwene knows how to turn iron into cuendillar?
With that weave, they could turn any old crummy bit of metal tubing
into a cannon that actually gets harder and more invincible every time
it fires. And misfires would make it even stronger. If they were even
possible in the first place, because you could never bust the tube
open so the cannonball would still have to come out of the end.
Imagine how far you could fling a cuendillar cannonball from a
cuendillar cannon. The powder you could pack into it, the force it
could contain. It seems to me that somebody has been a bit forgetful
here, and the cannons are just one thing cuendillar could be used for.
Imagine if you put a cuendillar mesh around on the floors in various
strategic places. Nobody would be able to Travel there, and the
dreamspike could also fuck off, along with the cannons.
--
Because, you know, fuck the pointless cannons off entirely and just
kill a million Trollocs with a single swipe of the hand using the One
Power. I don't know.

David DeLaney

2011-08-13 18:29:51 UTC

Okay, I've no idea what's going on, but I'm testing out Modzilla
Thunderbird here, instead of Windows Mail.
And it has the > in there, so that's a great start!

Pssst: you're Allowed to move your cursor down below the quoted part before
you start typing. Also, this usually lets you see how much you quoted, and
makes you aware that some of it can be trashed entirely!

Dave "typographical science" DeLaney

Contro

2011-08-17 20:41:20 UTC

Okay, I've no idea what's going on, but I'm testing out Modzilla
Thunderbird here, instead of Windows Mail.
And it has the> in there, so that's a great start!

LOL you do realise you're probably the first person in about 15 years to
complain about top-posting in this group?!

David DeLaney

2011-08-17 22:56:43 UTC

Post by David DeLaney
Pssst: you're Allowed to move your cursor down below the quoted part before
you start typing. Also, this usually lets you see how much you quoted, and
makes you aware that some of it can be trashed entirely!
Dave "typographical science" DeLaney

LOL you do realise you're probably the first person in about 15 years to
complain about top-posting in this group?!

My work here is done! again!

Dave "vanishes mysteriously ... ... <sfx: cough type=offstage>" DeLaney

Chucky & Janica

2011-08-24 09:12:27 UTC

On Wed, 17 Aug 2011 21:41:20 +0100, Contro <***@aol.com> wrote:

Made me laugh.

Post by Contro
LOL you do realise you're probably the first person in about 15 years to
complain about top-posting in this group?!

C&J

Contro

2011-09-01 11:09:46 UTC

You ironic bugger!

Post by Chucky & Janica
Made me laugh.

Post by Contro
LOL you do realise you're probably the first person in about 15 years to
complain about top-posting in this group?!

C&J

Chucky & Janica

2011-09-19 07:55:05 UTC

On Thu, 01 Sep 2011 12:09:46 +0100, Contro <***@aol.com> wrote:

Has its charms.

Post by Contro
You ironic bugger!

Post by Chucky & Janica
Made me laugh.

Post by Contro
LOL you do realise you're probably the first person in about 15 years to
complain about top-posting in this group?!

C&J

Contro

2011-10-06 21:44:58 UTC

Reminds me of putting on a top hat!

Post by Chucky & Janica
Has its charms.

Post by Contro
You ironic bugger!

Post by Chucky & Janica
Made me laugh.

Post by Contro
LOL you do realise you're probably the first person in about 15 years to
complain about top-posting in this group?!

C&J

--
Contro.

Chucky@Hospital

2011-10-09 17:19:30 UTC

A top hat? Is it because of the word 'top'? I only ask, you
understand, out of a desperate need to keep the group alive.

Post by Contro
Reminds me of putting on a top hat!

***@H
--
And because I want to talk to you, of course. I'm newsgroup-starved.

Contro

2011-10-10 23:09:18 UTC

Quite possibly! Although I guess it could be any hat really, since then
go on top of your head!

Although not all have the word "top" in them, I concede.

But yes, I did expect more posts in the group, but there's been hardly
any of late!

Post by ***@Hospital
A top hat? Is it because of the word 'top'? I only ask, you
understand, out of a desperate need to keep the group alive.

Post by Contro
Reminds me of putting on a top hat!

--
And because I want to talk to you, of course. I'm newsgroup-starved.

--
Contro.

Chucky@Hospital

2011-10-11 09:30:17 UTC

And if it's hats and lack of posts we're talking about, the Welcome
Back Contro Party Thread has been sorely neglected - and you're here
on the group and all!

And nobody else is! So they'll never believe me! I'm lik Big Bird and
you're the Snuffalufagus. Except in e-appearance, I suppose, we're the
other way around.

***@H
--
Yeah.

Quite possibly! Although I guess it could be any hat really, since then
go on top of your head!
Although not all have the word "top" in them, I concede.
But yes, I did expect more posts in the group, but there's been hardly
any of late!

Chucky@Hospital

2011-10-11 12:02:46 UTC

Case in point, if I'd said "I'm lik Big Bird" back in the good old
days, it would have gathered fifteen or twenty smarmy remarks by now.

Post by ***@Hospital
And if it's hats and lack of posts we're talking about, the Welcome
Back Contro Party Thread has been sorely neglected - and you're here
on the group and all!
And nobody else is! So they'll never believe me! I'm lik Big Bird and
you're the Snuffalufagus. Except in e-appearance, I suppose, we're the
other way around.
--
Yeah.

Quite possibly! Although I guess it could be any hat really, since then
go on top of your head!
Although not all have the word "top" in them, I concede.
But yes, I did expect more posts in the group, but there's been hardly
any of late!

Contro

2011-11-12 11:40:35 UTC

Post by ***@Hospital
Case in point, if I'd said "I'm lik Big Bird" back in the good old
days, it would have gathered fifteen or twenty smarmy remarks by now.

Never before has a lack of ribbing made people feel so alone!

Post by ***@Hospital

Post by Contro
Quite possibly! Although I guess it could be any hat really, since then
go on top of your head!
Although not all have the word "top" in them, I concede.
But yes, I did expect more posts in the group, but there's been hardly
any of late!

--
Contro.

Chucky@Home

2011-11-20 13:42:42 UTC

Post by ***@Hospital
Case in point, if I'd said "I'm lik Big Bird" back
in the good old
days, it would have gathered fifteen or
twenty smarmy remarks by now.

Never before has a lack of ribbing made people
feel so alone!

God help me, it's true.

***@H
--
Sign-a the apocalypse.

Contro

2011-11-12 11:39:39 UTC

Post by ***@Hospital
And if it's hats and lack of posts we're talking about, the Welcome
Back Contro Party Thread has been sorely neglected - and you're here
on the group and all!

I was there! I think I lost my hat!

*no hat*

Post by ***@Hospital
And nobody else is! So they'll never believe me! I'm lik Big Bird and
you're the Snuffalufagus. Except in e-appearance, I suppose, we're the
other way around.

Where has everyone gone then?! You'd think discussion forums like this
would still be popular really. I guess with facebook having its own
ones, people go there instead. Although when i checked them, they
didn't seem to be a hive of activity!

Post by ***@Hospital
--
Yeah.

--
Contro.

Chucky@Home

2011-11-20 13:40:12 UTC

I was there! I think I lost my hat!

Well then, you must be punished.

*rummages around searching for the ol' punishment baton*

*no hat*

You're only making it worse for yourself!

*rummages in pants*

Post by ***@Hospital
I'm lik Big Bird and
you're the Snuffalufagus. Except in
e-appearance, I suppose, we're the
other way around.

Where has everyone gone then?! You'd think
discussion forums like this
would still be popular really.

You'd think so. I don't understand it, it's not like the book series
has died or ended yet. I guess the 'generation' that was using usenet
just moved on, and the young scallywags of today don't know how to use
the newsgroups. Too much text and thinking.

*glances at newsgroup history*

Well ... lots of text, anyway.

I guess with facebook having its own
ones, people go there instead. Although
when i checked them, they
didn't seem to be a hive of activity!

Never knew Facebook had a newsgroup or forum application. I think
discussion forums are just not what people today want. They went in
the web forum direction, and now just stick to the comments field of
whaever website they're reading. That way you don't have to read other
opinions or discuss anything, you just spout your own thoughts and
walk away.

Very depressing.

***@H
--
Could this be the end?

Not on my watch!

Chucky & Janica

2011-08-24 09:11:59 UTC

You're thinking of the other newsgroup. Here, people can top-post if
they want to or are too clumsy to avoid it.

C&J

It's a rule I just made up. Ten years ago, after a lot of fighting
with idiots.

Chucky & Janica

2011-08-24 09:10:57 UTC

Post by Contro
In the meantime, I need to get a haircut!

Let us know how that turns out for you. We've been away for too long
ourselves, but I thought I should drop by to catch up.

Post by Contro
I'll hope to catch up on the plot holes shortly.

Good man.

Post by Contro
Still reading Dance With Dragons...if Martin uses the phrase "must
needs" one more time, I will implode and be reduced to a bag of hamsters.

"Reduced"?

C&J

David DeLaney

2011-08-24 09:38:00 UTC

Post by Contro
Still reading Dance With Dragons...if Martin uses the phrase "must
needs" one more time, I will implode and be reduced to a bag of hamsters.

"Reduced"?

Chemically. With lots of hissing and bubbling and a wisp of colored smoke.

Dave

Chucky & Janica

2011-08-30 10:49:58 UTC

Post by Contro
Still reading Dance With Dragons...if Martin uses the phrase "must
needs" one more time, I will implode and be reduced to a bag of hamsters.

"Reduced"?

Chemically. With lots of hissing and bubbling and a wisp of colored smoke.

I'm reading it myself, and the phrase "must needs" hasn't bothered me
yet, although it is jumping out now that Contro mentioned it. The one
that's bugging me is "many and more" which he uses a couple of times a
chapter.

C&J

Contro

2011-09-01 11:08:54 UTC

Post by Contro
In the meantime, I need to get a haircut!

Let us know how that turns out for you. We've been away for too long
ourselves, but I thought I should drop by to catch up.

The haircut went well, thank you! Well, as good as they do...usually it
takes a week or two for my hair to actually look normal again.

Post by Contro
I'll hope to catch up on the plot holes shortly.

Good man.

Thank you!