Discussion:
Traveling, Skimming, and the Silver Foxhead
(too old to reply)
Chucky & Janica
2013-04-21 07:37:30 UTC
Permalink
A little while ago, there was a brief discussion about the One
Power-nullifying effects of Mat's foxhead medallion.

I said (as now seems fairly well-confirmed and consistent in
retrospect) that it wouldn't dissolve gateways. This is obviously
true, since he killed the gholam by ducking through a Skimming
gateway, and traveled a whole bunch in the final book without having
any problems.

Of course, this was still up in the air between his getting the
medallion in Rhuidean and killing the gholam in book 12 or 13. I think
it is fair enough to say that this was something Jordan had planned,
and Mat's medallion was never supposed to have problems with gateways.
Indeed, as I said in the earlier discussion, it *sort of* makes sense,
because the weave itself is only in the frame of the gateway which
revolves open, so he can go through the intervening space without
unravelling the weaves. Uh, the back of the gateway notwithstanding -
but everyone is, to my recollection, advised to avoid the backs of
gateways anyway.

And we don't have any other evidence of Mat going through gateways
before that. They were amazingly under-used, since their rediscovery.

Anyway, I just wanted to note that this obviously wasn't always my
theory concerning Mat's medallion. Prior to his dispatching of the
gholam, indeed, I was operating on the assumption that the medallion
"Here's what I'm going to do," Forsaken_1 said,
feeling particularly brilliant. "I'm going to put this
ter'angreal on top of the baby jar, and I'm going
to throw them both through that gateway.
If I'm right, it'll dissolve the gateway as it goes
through, and you'll want to be there, waiting to
catch the jar, because I reckon there's a bit of
magic flowing through this thing and the
ter'angreal's gonna switch it right off."
This is a semi-made-up trinket of Cadsuane's, not Mat's, but the same
theory applies. And turns out Forsaken_1 *was* right, and this plan
worked. Which (heh, like Shadowspawn apparently not being able to use
gateways at all) was later all screwed up by the actual books.

Now, obviously, I need to fix this or explain it in a future part of
the Steal, since I wrote it without knowing all the facts. So I ended
up in a contradiction.

Still, easy enough I think -

even if Cadsuane's trinket wasn't different to Mat's;

and even if Lanfear didn't just stop channeling in her distraction
(thus closing the gateway);

and even if Jordan's death in the Steal (another eerie-arse piece of
prophecy, by the way) didn't lead to the story itself being
ghost-written with different universal laws to the version we've read
(I consider this a cop-out so probably won't pursue it);

...it's quite possible that Forsaken_1's throw took the ter'angreal
close enough to the edge of the gateway to dissolve it as per any
other weave. And it just wasn't mentioned specifically.

Of course, this is a side-issue and I will get around to addressing it
in the Steal. I will! I think the potential these ter'angreal have to
fuck up gateways could definitely have been used in the books.

My main question is, would the final books have been more dramatic, or
otherwise improved, if people bearing these types of ter'angreal
*hadn't* in fact been able to travel? Or, indeed, if the gholam itself
had been able to dissolve gateways on contact / through-stepping?

Because this would have made Mat's effectiveness in the Last Battle
far more conditional: he would have had a more legitimate reason to
loan his medallion out, so as to make use of the One Power to full
effect, putting himself at more risk as a trade-off to the enormous
advantage he was providing to the armies of the Light. And it would
have made the gholam an even more drawn-out and painful problem.

Which ... could have been good, or it could have just gotten annoying,
like Perrin rescuing Faile all the time.

Anyway, what do you think?



C&J
Aaron
2013-04-22 11:38:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky & Janica
A little while ago, there was a brief discussion about the One
Power-nullifying effects of Mat's foxhead medallion.
I said (as now seems fairly well-confirmed and consistent in
retrospect) that it wouldn't dissolve gateways. This is obviously
true, since he killed the gholam by ducking through a Skimming
gateway, and traveled a whole bunch in the final book without having
any problems.
Of course, this was still up in the air between his getting the
medallion in Rhuidean and killing the gholam in book 12 or 13. I think
it is fair enough to say that this was something Jordan had planned,
and Mat's medallion was never supposed to have problems with gateways.
Indeed, as I said in the earlier discussion, it *sort of* makes sense,
because the weave itself is only in the frame of the gateway which
revolves open, so he can go through the intervening space without
unravelling the weaves. Uh, the back of the gateway notwithstanding -
but everyone is, to my recollection, advised to avoid the backs of
gateways anyway.
And we don't have any other evidence of Mat going through gateways
before that. They were amazingly under-used, since their rediscovery.
Anyway, I just wanted to note that this obviously wasn't always my
theory concerning Mat's medallion. Prior to his dispatching of the
gholam, indeed, I was operating on the assumption that the medallion
"Here's what I'm going to do," Forsaken_1 said,
feeling particularly brilliant. "I'm going to put this
ter'angreal on top of the baby jar, and I'm going
to throw them both through that gateway.
If I'm right, it'll dissolve the gateway as it goes
through, and you'll want to be there, waiting to
catch the jar, because I reckon there's a bit of
magic flowing through this thing and the
ter'angreal's gonna switch it right off."
This is a semi-made-up trinket of Cadsuane's, not Mat's, but the same
theory applies. And turns out Forsaken_1 *was* right, and this plan
worked. Which (heh, like Shadowspawn apparently not being able to use
gateways at all) was later all screwed up by the actual books.
Now, obviously, I need to fix this or explain it in a future part of
the Steal, since I wrote it without knowing all the facts. So I ended
up in a contradiction.
Still, easy enough I think -
even if Cadsuane's trinket wasn't different to Mat's;
and even if Lanfear didn't just stop channeling in her distraction
(thus closing the gateway);
and even if Jordan's death in the Steal (another eerie-arse piece of
prophecy, by the way) didn't lead to the story itself being
ghost-written with different universal laws to the version we've read
(I consider this a cop-out so probably won't pursue it);
...it's quite possible that Forsaken_1's throw took the ter'angreal
close enough to the edge of the gateway to dissolve it as per any
other weave. And it just wasn't mentioned specifically.
Of course, this is a side-issue and I will get around to addressing it
in the Steal. I will! I think the potential these ter'angreal have to
fuck up gateways could definitely have been used in the books.
My main question is, would the final books have been more dramatic, or
otherwise improved, if people bearing these types of ter'angreal
*hadn't* in fact been able to travel? Or, indeed, if the gholam itself
had been able to dissolve gateways on contact / through-stepping?
Because this would have made Mat's effectiveness in the Last Battle
far more conditional: he would have had a more legitimate reason to
loan his medallion out, so as to make use of the One Power to full
effect, putting himself at more risk as a trade-off to the enormous
advantage he was providing to the armies of the Light. And it would
have made the gholam an even more drawn-out and painful problem.
Which ... could have been good, or it could have just gotten annoying,
like Perrin rescuing Faile all the time.
Anyway, what do you think?
Well, while I admit it "could go either way" on the medallions and the Gateways, obviously from my other comments I feel strongly that they should interfere with one another, as you also believed before canon went the other way.

Interesting, though, that it was Sanders(on) canon, not pure RJ canon, that went the other way. No? Does that matter, I wonder, or should it? No, I'm not bringing this back to that other topic, I accept that RJ also went the other way on that one, not just Sanders(on).

So I feel that the whole gateway (from one side to the other, top to bottom) must be constructed of the power, that's just what makes sense to me. But I didn't write the books.

Uhh, thankfully. Can you IMAGINE how awful they would be? We sure as shit wouldn't have so many fans. Or any fans. *I* don't even like what I write.

Anyway.

-Aaron
Chucky @ Work
2013-04-23 07:41:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky & Janica
A little while ago, there was a brief discussion about the One
Power-nullifying effects of Mat's foxhead medallion.
I said (as now seems fairly well-confirmed and consistent in
retrospect) that it wouldn't dissolve gateways. This is obviously
true, since he killed the gholam by ducking through a Skimming
gateway, and traveled a whole bunch in the final book without having
any problems.
Of course, this was still up in the air between his getting the
medallion in Rhuidean and killing the gholam in book 12 or 13. I think
it is fair enough to say that this was something Jordan had planned,
and Mat's medallion was never supposed to have problems with gateways.
Indeed, as I said in the earlier discussion, it *sort of* makes sense,
because the weave itself is only in the frame of the gateway which
revolves open, so he can go through the intervening space without
unravelling the weaves. Uh, the back of the gateway notwithstanding -
but everyone is, to my recollection, advised to avoid the backs of
gateways anyway.
And we don't have any other evidence of Mat going through gateways
before that. They were amazingly under-used, since their rediscovery.
Anyway, I just wanted to note that this obviously wasn't always my
theory concerning Mat's medallion. Prior to his dispatching of the
gholam, indeed, I was operating on the assumption that the medallion
"Here's what I'm going to do," Forsaken_1 said,
feeling particularly brilliant. "I'm going to put this
ter'angreal on top of the baby jar, and I'm going
to throw them both through that gateway.
If I'm right, it'll dissolve the gateway as it goes
through, and you'll want to be there, waiting to
catch the jar, because I reckon there's a bit of
magic flowing through this thing and the
ter'angreal's gonna switch it right off."
This is a semi-made-up trinket of Cadsuane's, not Mat's, but the same
theory applies. And turns out Forsaken_1 *was* right, and this plan
worked. Which (heh, like Shadowspawn apparently not being able to use
gateways at all) was later all screwed up by the actual books.
Now, obviously, I need to fix this or explain it in a future part of
the Steal, since I wrote it without knowing all the facts. So I ended
up in a contradiction.
Still, easy enough I think -
even if Cadsuane's trinket wasn't different to Mat's;
and even if Lanfear didn't just stop channeling in her distraction
(thus closing the gateway);
and even if Jordan's death in the Steal (another eerie-arse piece of
prophecy, by the way) didn't lead to the story itself being
ghost-written with different universal laws to the version we've read
(I consider this a cop-out so probably won't pursue it);
...it's quite possible that Forsaken_1's throw took the ter'angreal
close enough to the edge of the gateway to dissolve it as per any
other weave. And it just wasn't mentioned specifically.
Of course, this is a side-issue and I will get around to addressing it
in the Steal. I will! I think the potential these ter'angreal have to
fuck up gateways could definitely have been used in the books.
My main question is, would the final books have been more dramatic, or
otherwise improved, if people bearing these types of ter'angreal
*hadn't* in fact been able to travel? Or, indeed, if the gholam itself
had been able to dissolve gateways on contact / through-stepping?
Because this would have made Mat's effectiveness in the Last Battle
far more conditional: he would have had a more legitimate reason to
loan his medallion out, so as to make use of the One Power to full
effect, putting himself at more risk as a trade-off to the enormous
advantage he was providing to the armies of the Light. And it would
have made the gholam an even more drawn-out and painful problem.
Which ... could have been good, or it could have just gotten annoying,
like Perrin rescuing Faile all the time.
Anyway, what do you think?
Well, while I admit it "could go either way" on the medallions and the
Gateways, obviously from my other comments I feel strongly that
they should interfere with one another, as you also believed before
canon went the other way.
*nod* Seemed to make sense. But then, now it has been "demonstrated",
I'm satisfied with how they work. I think it makes sense.
Post by Aaron
Interesting, though, that it was Sanders(on) canon, not pure RJ
canon, that went the other way. No? Does that matter, I wonder,
or should it?
Enh, I don't think it matters, and my gut's telling me this isn't
something Sanderson changed, I think he was obeying a narrative law
that Jordan set in place (probably purely in order to kill the gholam,
actually, that was probably something Jordan had hashed out at least
in a broad sense): Shadowspawn can't travel, weave-dissolving
ter'angreal and gholam can go through gateways without dissolving
them, gholam in turn can apparently travel unharmed although they want
to watch their step if they're Skimming.

Or heck, maybe a traveling gateway would have killed the gholam like
any other Shadowspawn, and it would have sensed it and avoided it. And
Skimming *wouldn't* kill it (or by extension other Shadowspawn), so
just as well they went with the Skimming-and-push-off-into-subspace
option. Why didn't it smell the Skimming gateway anyway? Wasn't its
ability to sense channeling somehow covered in the books? Was it
hidden in the smoke and fire and blood-lust? I can't recall.

We have a sample size of 1 for gholam doing anything, and a sample
size of 0 for Shadowspawn Skimming. So.
Post by Aaron
No, I'm not bringing this back to that other topic, I accept
that RJ also went the other way on that one, not just
Sanders(on).
*nod* Makes sense to me that this isn't something Sanderson would
change around. And in retrospect, just luring it through a traveling
gateway so it dies would have been pretty lame, so it's cool that they
went with the Skimming option.
Post by Aaron
So I feel that the whole gateway (from one side to the
other, top to bottom) must be constructed of the power,
that's just what makes sense to me. But I didn't write the
books.
Yeah, but now I think about it, I'm happy with the weave only being in
the edges of the gateway. It starts as a line, then opens out into a
square. The unpicking of weaves we see goes on *around* that square,
not across its open surface as well. The pieces fit.
Post by Aaron
Uhh, thankfully. Can you IMAGINE how awful they would
be? We sure as shit wouldn't have so many fans. Or any
fans. *I* don't even like what I write.
*snicker*

But the Fremen blowjob thing was so *detailed*.





***@w
--
13 of 12, the CMM Collective
CHOW:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/chow-a-dance-with-dragons/
Give a hoot, read my book:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2012/07/18/arsebook-my-rear-in-status-2011/
Aaron
2013-04-23 17:08:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky & Janica
A little while ago, there was a brief discussion about the One
Power-nullifying effects of Mat's foxhead medallion.
I said (as now seems fairly well-confirmed and consistent in
retrospect) that it wouldn't dissolve gateways. This is obviously
true, since he killed the gholam by ducking through a Skimming
gateway, and traveled a whole bunch in the final book without having
any problems.
Of course, this was still up in the air between his getting the
medallion in Rhuidean and killing the gholam in book 12 or 13. I think
it is fair enough to say that this was something Jordan had planned,
and Mat's medallion was never supposed to have problems with gateways.
Indeed, as I said in the earlier discussion, it *sort of* makes sense,
because the weave itself is only in the frame of the gateway which
revolves open, so he can go through the intervening space without
unravelling the weaves. Uh, the back of the gateway notwithstanding -
but everyone is, to my recollection, advised to avoid the backs of
gateways anyway.
And we don't have any other evidence of Mat going through gateways
before that. They were amazingly under-used, since their rediscovery.
Anyway, I just wanted to note that this obviously wasn't always my
theory concerning Mat's medallion. Prior to his dispatching of the
gholam, indeed, I was operating on the assumption that the medallion
"Here's what I'm going to do," Forsaken_1 said,
feeling particularly brilliant. "I'm going to put this
ter'angreal on top of the baby jar, and I'm going
to throw them both through that gateway.
If I'm right, it'll dissolve the gateway as it goes
through, and you'll want to be there, waiting to
catch the jar, because I reckon there's a bit of
magic flowing through this thing and the
ter'angreal's gonna switch it right off."
This is a semi-made-up trinket of Cadsuane's, not Mat's, but the same
theory applies. And turns out Forsaken_1 *was* right, and this plan
worked. Which (heh, like Shadowspawn apparently not being able to use
gateways at all) was later all screwed up by the actual books.
Now, obviously, I need to fix this or explain it in a future part of
the Steal, since I wrote it without knowing all the facts. So I ended
up in a contradiction.
Still, easy enough I think -
even if Cadsuane's trinket wasn't different to Mat's;
and even if Lanfear didn't just stop channeling in her distraction
(thus closing the gateway);
and even if Jordan's death in the Steal (another eerie-arse piece of
prophecy, by the way) didn't lead to the story itself being
ghost-written with different universal laws to the version we've read
(I consider this a cop-out so probably won't pursue it);
...it's quite possible that Forsaken_1's throw took the ter'angreal
close enough to the edge of the gateway to dissolve it as per any
other weave. And it just wasn't mentioned specifically.
Of course, this is a side-issue and I will get around to addressing it
in the Steal. I will! I think the potential these ter'angreal have to
fuck up gateways could definitely have been used in the books.
My main question is, would the final books have been more dramatic, or
otherwise improved, if people bearing these types of ter'angreal
*hadn't* in fact been able to travel? Or, indeed, if the gholam itself
had been able to dissolve gateways on contact / through-stepping?
Because this would have made Mat's effectiveness in the Last Battle
far more conditional: he would have had a more legitimate reason to
loan his medallion out, so as to make use of the One Power to full
effect, putting himself at more risk as a trade-off to the enormous
advantage he was providing to the armies of the Light. And it would
have made the gholam an even more drawn-out and painful problem.
Which ... could have been good, or it could have just gotten annoying,
like Perrin rescuing Faile all the time.
Anyway, what do you think?
Well, while I admit it "could go either way" on the medallions and the
Gateways, obviously from my other comments I feel strongly that
they should interfere with one another, as you also believed before
canon went the other way.
*nod* Seemed to make sense. But then, now it has been "demonstrated",
I'm satisfied with how they work. I think it makes sense.
Post by Aaron
Interesting, though, that it was Sanders(on) canon, not pure RJ
canon, that went the other way. No? Does that matter, I wonder,
or should it?
Enh, I don't think it matters, and my gut's telling me this isn't
something Sanderson changed, I think he was obeying a narrative law
that Jordan set in place (probably purely in order to kill the gholam,
actually, that was probably something Jordan had hashed out at least
in a broad sense): Shadowspawn can't travel, weave-dissolving
ter'angreal and gholam can go through gateways without dissolving
them, gholam in turn can apparently travel unharmed although they want
to watch their step if they're Skimming.
Or heck, maybe a traveling gateway would have killed the gholam like
any other Shadowspawn, and it would have sensed it and avoided it. And
Skimming *wouldn't* kill it (or by extension other Shadowspawn), so
just as well they went with the Skimming-and-push-off-into-subspace
option. Why didn't it smell the Skimming gateway anyway? Wasn't its
ability to sense channeling somehow covered in the books? Was it
hidden in the smoke and fire and blood-lust? I can't recall.
We have a sample size of 1 for gholam doing anything, and a sample
size of 0 for Shadowspawn Skimming. So.
Post by Aaron
No, I'm not bringing this back to that other topic, I accept
that RJ also went the other way on that one, not just
Sanders(on).
*nod* Makes sense to me that this isn't something Sanderson would
change around. And in retrospect, just luring it through a traveling
gateway so it dies would have been pretty lame, so it's cool that they
went with the Skimming option.
Maybe, however, this means that Skimming (and Skimways) ARE different?

I wonder, instead (or in fact?) if this wasn't another case of RJ figuring out how things worked in his universe as he went along? For example, like Traveling, or True Power channeling, and so on. And Taim being Demandred?

OK not that last one.

Skimming was used first, and a good bit, before we saw Traveling, right? Maybe they are different, or one gave the idea to RJ for the other and hence we can think of them as different techniques?
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
So I feel that the whole gateway (from one side to the
other, top to bottom) must be constructed of the power,
that's just what makes sense to me. But I didn't write the
books.
Yeah, but now I think about it, I'm happy with the weave only being in
the edges of the gateway. It starts as a line, then opens out into a
square. The unpicking of weaves we see goes on *around* that square,
not across its open surface as well. The pieces fit.
Post by Aaron
Uhh, thankfully. Can you IMAGINE how awful they would
be? We sure as shit wouldn't have so many fans. Or any
fans. *I* don't even like what I write.
*snicker*
But the Fremen blowjob thing was so *detailed*.
Well, true. But I can't very well just write a porno. That's cheating. EVERYONE likes porn.

-Aaron
Chucky @ Work
2013-04-24 06:21:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
*nod* Makes sense to me that this isn't something Sanderson would
change around. And in retrospect, just luring it through a traveling
gateway so it dies would have been pretty lame, so it's cool that they
went with the Skimming option.
Maybe, however, this means that Skimming (and Skimways) ARE different?
Well, they are. It says that they are. In the one (Skimming), you need
to know where you're going to but not where you are. In the other
(Traveling), you need to know where you are but not where you're
going.

Rand stumbles on Skimming, I seem to recall, and Asmodean uses it
(sometime after that, I think) to try and get away from him. Egwene
and Aviendha stumble on Traveling. But the Forsaken knew of both
already, and arguably used them prior to their rediscovery.
Post by Aaron
I wonder, instead (or in fact?) if this wasn't another case of
RJ figuring out how things worked in his universe as he went
along? For example, like Traveling, or True Power channeling,
and so on. And Taim being Demandred?
OK not that last one.
Heh, sure.
Post by Aaron
Skimming was used first, and a good bit, before we saw
Traveling, right?
Uhh, well I wouldn't have said so. As I say above, I think the
Forsaken used both, although sure, they were all a bit fuzzy about it
until the rules became clearer. I think it all worked out
internally-consistently, though. They used the one when they didn't
know where they were but knew where they were going, and they used the
other when they were going from somewhere familiar.

No real sense of them being able to transport Shadowspawn by Skimming
though. Although the Skimming-plane did seem rather more like the Ways
- somewhere between the Ways and Traveling, I guess. You still travel
relatively in space and it takes time to get there, but it's
condensed. Unlike Traveling, which is (functionally, with due tips of
the hat to hair-pulling science-types) instantaneous.
Post by Aaron
Maybe they are different, or one gave the idea to RJ for the
other and hence we can think of them as different techniques?
I'd say that's safe.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
But the Fremen blowjob thing was so *detailed*.
Well, true. But I can't very well just write a porno. That's
cheating. EVERYONE likes porn.
Hee. Fish in a barrel.




***@w

What?
--
13 of 12, the CMM Collective
CHOW:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/chow-a-dance-with-dragons/
Give a hoot, read my book:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2012/07/18/arsebook-my-rear-in-status-2011/
Aaron
2013-04-24 15:06:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
*nod* Makes sense to me that this isn't something Sanderson would
change around. And in retrospect, just luring it through a traveling
gateway so it dies would have been pretty lame, so it's cool that they
went with the Skimming option.
Maybe, however, this means that Skimming (and Skimways) ARE different?
Well, they are. It says that they are. In the one (Skimming), you need
to know where you're going to but not where you are. In the other
(Traveling), you need to know where you are but not where you're
going.
I know, I know. I should have been more specific. I mean, maybe they ARE different as it pertains to Shadowspawn survivability/instadeath?
Post by Chucky @ Work
Rand stumbles on Skimming, I seem to recall, and Asmodean uses it
(sometime after that, I think) to try and get away from him. Egwene
and Aviendha stumble on Traveling. But the Forsaken knew of both
already, and arguably used them prior to their rediscovery.
Right. I want to say there was skimming in TDR near the end?
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
I wonder, instead (or in fact?) if this wasn't another case of
RJ figuring out how things worked in his universe as he went
along? For example, like Traveling, or True Power channeling,
and so on. And Taim being Demandred?
OK not that last one.
Heh, sure.
Post by Aaron
Skimming was used first, and a good bit, before we saw
Traveling, right?
Uhh, well I wouldn't have said so. As I say above, I think the
Forsaken used both, although sure, they were all a bit fuzzy about it
until the rules became clearer. I think it all worked out
internally-consistently, though. They used the one when they didn't
know where they were but knew where they were going, and they used the
other when they were going from somewhere familiar.
I dunno, seems to me the first Traveling we witnessed was True Power traveling or something, whatever Lanfear was supposedly doing. Or maybe coming in and out of T'A'R, dunno, with Ishamael's appearances. But that might have been normal Traveling with the OP, now I'm not sure where the consensus was there.

However, fairly early on, before all that was settled (I think) we started getting some firsthand skimming experiences. Book 3 for sure, but I wanna say earlier than that maybe?
Post by Chucky @ Work
No real sense of them being able to transport Shadowspawn by Skimming
though. Although the Skimming-plane did seem rather more like the Ways
- somewhere between the Ways and Traveling, I guess. You still travel
relatively in space and it takes time to get there, but it's
condensed. Unlike Traveling, which is (functionally, with due tips of
the hat to hair-pulling science-types) instantaneous.
You know, that's a really good point, which raises a somewhat problematic question: Why didn't they ever skim Shadowspawn, since it seems they can survive it? Or, does the gholam situation not imply that for all Shadowspawn? Too slow? Safer than the ways....
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Maybe they are different, or one gave the idea to RJ for the
other and hence we can think of them as different techniques?
I'd say that's safe.
Usually I go for safe. You know, after I've already created a massive fight.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
But the Fremen blowjob thing was so *detailed*.
Well, true. But I can't very well just write a porno. That's
cheating. EVERYONE likes porn.
Hee. Fish in a barrel.
Only thing I can hit when shooting a gun[1]

-Aaron

[1] Kidding. I was actually fairly good with a handgun in military gun qualifications, with no practice. Always seemed easy to me. Don't fire until the one doohickey is lined up with the other doohickey, both on the target. *shrug*
Chucky @ Work
2013-04-26 07:55:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Well, they are. It says that they are. In the one (Skimming), you need
to know where you're going to but not where you are. In the other
(Traveling), you need to know where you are but not where you're
going.
I know, I know. I should have been more specific. I mean,
maybe they ARE different as it pertains to Shadowspawn
survivability/instadeath?
Right. Could be, but we have no evidence.

Well, aside from the gholam surviving *entrance to* the Skimming
plane. No way of knowing if he might have come out the other end dead,
since he didn't come out the other end.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Rand stumbles on Skimming, I seem to recall, and Asmodean uses it
(sometime after that, I think) to try and get away from him. Egwene
and Aviendha stumble on Traveling. But the Forsaken knew of both
already, and arguably used them prior to their rediscovery.
Right. I want to say there was skimming in TDR near the end?
Yep, Rand and Natael/Asmodean having their steeplechase.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Uhh, well I wouldn't have said so. As I say above, I think the
Forsaken used both, although sure, they were all a bit fuzzy about it
until the rules became clearer. I think it all worked out
internally-consistently, though. They used the one when they didn't
know where they were but knew where they were going, and they used the
other when they were going from somewhere familiar.
I dunno, seems to me the first Traveling we witnessed was True
Power traveling or something, whatever Lanfear was supposedly
doing.
Yeah, or whatever Ishamael was doing in the Prologue.
Post by Aaron
Or maybe coming in and out of T'A'R, dunno, with Ishamael's
appearances. But that might have been normal Traveling with
the OP, now I'm not sure where the consensus was there.
*shrug*
Post by Aaron
However, fairly early on, before all that was settled (I think)
we started getting some firsthand skimming experiences.
Book 3 for sure, but I wanna say earlier than that maybe?
Sure.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
No real sense of them being able to transport Shadowspawn by Skimming
though. Although the Skimming-plane did seem rather more like the Ways
- somewhere between the Ways and Traveling, I guess. You still travel
relatively in space and it takes time to get there, but it's
condensed. Unlike Traveling, which is (functionally, with due tips of
the hat to hair-pulling science-types) instantaneous.
You know, that's a really good point, which raises a somewhat
problematic question: Why didn't they ever skim Shadowspawn,
since it seems they can survive it?
Um.
Post by Aaron
Or, does the gholam situation not imply that for all Shadowspawn? Too slow?
Safer than the ways....
I'm going to go with either "gholam != any and all Shadowspawn", or
"platform size takes way-heaps of power, so as an effective troop
transport it is ineffectual".

Mind you, losing half your troops to Machin Shin is apparently A-OK.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Well, true. But I can't very well just write a porno. That's
cheating. EVERYONE likes porn.
Hee. Fish in a barrel.
Only thing I can hit when shooting a gun[1]
I was making a porno-analogy.



***@w
--
13 of 12, the CMM Collective
CHOW:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/chow-a-dance-with-dragons/
Give a hoot, read my book:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2012/07/18/arsebook-my-rear-in-status-2011/
Aaron
2013-04-26 16:31:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Well, they are. It says that they are. In the one (Skimming), you need
to know where you're going to but not where you are. In the other
(Traveling), you need to know where you are but not where you're
going.
I know, I know. I should have been more specific. I mean,
maybe they ARE different as it pertains to Shadowspawn
survivability/instadeath?
Right. Could be, but we have no evidence.
Oh indeed, wasn't saying we did.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Well, aside from the gholam surviving *entrance to* the Skimming
plane. No way of knowing if he might have come out the other end dead,
since he didn't come out the other end.
Hah! Very good point!
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Rand stumbles on Skimming, I seem to recall, and Asmodean uses it
(sometime after that, I think) to try and get away from him. Egwene
and Aviendha stumble on Traveling. But the Forsaken knew of both
already, and arguably used them prior to their rediscovery.
Right. I want to say there was skimming in TDR near the end?
Yep, Rand and Natael/Asmodean having their steeplechase.
TDR, as in book 3. But I could be wrong about there being any skimming there. I was thinking of Ishy's and Rand's steeple chase at the end of THAT book.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Uhh, well I wouldn't have said so. As I say above, I think the
Forsaken used both, although sure, they were all a bit fuzzy about it
until the rules became clearer. I think it all worked out
internally-consistently, though. They used the one when they didn't
know where they were but knew where they were going, and they used the
other when they were going from somewhere familiar.
I dunno, seems to me the first Traveling we witnessed was True
Power traveling or something, whatever Lanfear was supposedly
doing.
Yeah, or whatever Ishamael was doing in the Prologue.
Generally being a dick.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Or maybe coming in and out of T'A'R, dunno, with Ishamael's
appearances. But that might have been normal Traveling with
the OP, now I'm not sure where the consensus was there.
*shrug*
Post by Aaron
However, fairly early on, before all that was settled (I think)
we started getting some firsthand skimming experiences.
Book 3 for sure, but I wanna say earlier than that maybe?
Sure.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
No real sense of them being able to transport Shadowspawn by Skimming
though. Although the Skimming-plane did seem rather more like the Ways
- somewhere between the Ways and Traveling, I guess. You still travel
relatively in space and it takes time to get there, but it's
condensed. Unlike Traveling, which is (functionally, with due tips of
the hat to hair-pulling science-types) instantaneous.
You know, that's a really good point, which raises a somewhat
problematic question: Why didn't they ever skim Shadowspawn,
since it seems they can survive it?
Um.
Post by Aaron
Or, does the gholam situation not imply that for all Shadowspawn? Too slow?
Safer than the ways....
I'm going to go with either "gholam != any and all Shadowspawn", or
"platform size takes way-heaps of power, so as an effective troop
transport it is ineffectual".
Well, true. Although....
Post by Chucky @ Work
Mind you, losing half your troops to Machin Shin is apparently A-OK.
This is the thought that led me to bring up the above.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Well, true. But I can't very well just write a porno. That's
cheating. EVERYONE likes porn.
Hee. Fish in a barrel.
Only thing I can hit when shooting a gun[1]
I was making a porno-analogy.
That hyphenated word works on so many levels!

And, barrel, gun, fish...and porno? *shudders*

-Aaron
Chucky @ Work
2013-04-27 13:35:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Right. I want to say there was skimming in TDR near the end?
Yep, Rand and Natael/Asmodean having their steeplechase.
TDR, as in book 3.
Right, I was thinking of The Shadow Rising, the one where they went to
the Waste, and Rhuidean, and met Natael and Shaogi and Isendre and
Kadere, and Rand made Car'a'carn, and Natael turned out to be Asmodean
and Rand chased him when he tried to escape via Skimmer, and caught
him and cut his Dark One cord and made him teach him shit and keep on
pretending to be Natael.

Wasn't it?

There was Skimming there, for sure.
Post by Aaron
But I could be wrong about there being any skimming there.
I was thinking of Ishy's and Rand's steeple chase at the end
of THAT book.
You mean Rand killing Ba'alzamon again, using Callandor this time? No
Skimming as far as I know. Just a lot of running around in Tear and
doing stuff with Callandor that he probably shouldn't.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Or, does the gholam situation not imply that for all Shadowspawn? Too slow?
Safer than the ways....
I'm going to go with either "gholam != any and all Shadowspawn", or
"platform size takes way-heaps of power, so as an effective troop
transport it is ineffectual".
Well, true. Although....
Post by Chucky @ Work
Mind you, losing half your troops to Machin Shin is apparently A-OK.
This is the thought that led me to bring up the above.
But opening a Waygate and saying "go through there, turn left at the
first floating island, and then kill anyone you meet at the far end,
and good luck against the Black Wind" and then walking away, is less
effort than actually doing a hands-on and probably dangerous troop
movement via Skimming.

Even if it *doesn't* kill the troops, which we don't know.



***@w
--
13 of 12, the CMM Collective
CHOW:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/chow-a-dance-with-dragons/
Give a hoot, read my book:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2012/07/18/arsebook-my-rear-in-status-2011/
TB
2013-04-27 00:54:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky & Janica
A little while ago, there was a brief discussion about the One
Power-nullifying effects of Mat's foxhead medallion.
I said (as now seems fairly well-confirmed and consistent in
retrospect) that it wouldn't dissolve gateways. This is obviously
true, since he killed the gholam by ducking through a Skimming
gateway, and traveled a whole bunch in the final book without having
any problems.
Of course, this was still up in the air between his getting the
medallion in Rhuidean and killing the gholam in book 12 or 13. I think
it is fair enough to say that this was something Jordan had planned,
and Mat's medallion was never supposed to have problems with gateways.
Indeed, as I said in the earlier discussion, it *sort of* makes sense,
because the weave itself is only in the frame of the gateway which
revolves open, so he can go through the intervening space without
unravelling the weaves. Uh, the back of the gateway notwithstanding -
but everyone is, to my recollection, advised to avoid the backs of
gateways anyway.
And we don't have any other evidence of Mat going through gateways
before that. They were amazingly under-used, since their rediscovery.
Anyway, I just wanted to note that this obviously wasn't always my
theory concerning Mat's medallion. Prior to his dispatching of the
gholam, indeed, I was operating on the assumption that the medallion
    "Here's what I'm going to do," Forsaken_1 said,
feeling particularly brilliant. "I'm going to put this
ter'angreal on top of the baby jar, and I'm going
to throw them both through that gateway.
If I'm right, it'll dissolve the gateway as it goes
through, and you'll want to be there, waiting to
catch the jar, because I reckon there's a bit of
magic flowing through this thing and the
ter'angreal's gonna switch it right off."
This is a semi-made-up trinket of Cadsuane's, not Mat's, but the same
theory applies. And turns out Forsaken_1 *was* right, and this plan
worked. Which (heh, like Shadowspawn apparently not being able to use
gateways at all) was later all screwed up by the actual books.
Now, obviously, I need to fix this or explain it in a future part of
the Steal, since I wrote it without knowing all the facts. So I ended
up in a contradiction.
Still, easy enough I think -
even if Cadsuane's trinket wasn't different to Mat's;
and even if Lanfear didn't just stop channeling in her distraction
(thus closing the gateway);
and even if Jordan's death in the Steal (another eerie-arse piece of
prophecy, by the way) didn't lead to the story itself being
ghost-written with different universal laws to the version we've read
(I consider this a cop-out so probably won't pursue it);
...it's quite possible that Forsaken_1's throw took the ter'angreal
close enough to the edge of the gateway to dissolve it as per any
other weave. And it just wasn't mentioned specifically.
Of course, this is a side-issue and I will get around to addressing it
in the Steal. I will! I think the potential these ter'angreal have to
fuck up gateways could definitely have been used in the books.
My main question is, would the final books have been more dramatic, or
otherwise improved, if people bearing these types of ter'angreal
*hadn't* in fact been able to travel? Or, indeed, if the gholam itself
had been able to dissolve gateways on contact / through-stepping?
Because this would have made Mat's effectiveness in the Last Battle
far more conditional: he would have had a more legitimate reason to
loan his medallion out, so as to make use of the One Power to full
effect, putting himself at more risk as a trade-off to the enormous
advantage he was providing to the armies of the Light. And it would
have made the gholam an even more drawn-out and painful problem.
Which ... could have been good, or it could have just gotten annoying,
like Perrin rescuing Faile all the time.
Anyway, what do you think?
Well, while I admit it "could go either way" on the medallions and the Gateways, obviously from my other comments I feel strongly that they should interfere with one another, as you also believed before canon went the other way.
Interesting, though, that it was Sanders(on) canon, not pure RJ canon, that went the other way. No? Does that matter, I wonder, or should it? No, I'm not bringing this back to that other topic, I accept that RJ also went the other way on that one, not just Sanders(on).
So I feel that the whole gateway (from one side to the other, top to bottom) must be constructed of the power, that's just what makes sense to me. But I didn't write the books.
Uhh, thankfully. Can you IMAGINE how awful they would be? We sure as shit wouldn't have so many fans. Or any fans. *I* don't even like what I write.
I'm imagining that the foxhead would nullify the gateway if it toughed
the actual weave at the sides of the Gateway, but can go through
safely otherwise.
Chucky @ Work
2013-04-27 13:37:14 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 26 Apr 2013 17:54:41 -0700 (PDT), TB
Post by TB
I'm imagining that the foxhead would nullify the gateway if it toughed
the actual weave at the sides of the Gateway, but can go through
safely otherwise.
Seems to be how they did it, at least every time Mat went through a
gateway and didn't touch the sides with his medallion, he went through
without dissolving it. So there's that fairly solid evidence.

What would happen if it did touch the sides, we don't really know
since we never saw it happen, but it's probably a safe bet that it
would dissolve the weave.

Or slice the medallion in half, breaking it.

Hmm.




***@w
--
13 of 12, the CMM Collective
CHOW:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/chow-a-dance-with-dragons/
Give a hoot, read my book:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2012/07/18/arsebook-my-rear-in-status-2011/
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