Post by Chucky @ WorkPost by AaronPost by Chucky @ WorkPost by AaronPost by Chucky @ Workthought Taim was Demandred in disguise, but apparently not.
*knew*
*kind*
When someone "knows" something but turns out to be wrong, then what
actually happened was that they *thought* they knew.
But you can't know!!!! *beanie*
Hee.
This was meant to lighten things (or butter you) up for the rest of the post, epic fail I guess. Also, my more positive, constructive later points were intended to be remembered throughout my post, but I guess you don’t work that way.
Do you read the whole post and then reply? Or just start replying right away? Be nice if you gave me credit for all the reasonable things I’m doing in other places in the one post as you’re tearing me a new one in other places. =(
Post by Chucky @ WorkPost by AaronSeriously, you can't know what RJ's initial intentions are. Therefore you
can't say we were actually wrong. All you can say is that RJ MADE us
wrong.
As is his right of course.
Yes. And you can't know either. So you can't say whether he made you
wrong circa Winter's Heart, or made you wrong right from the start.
Absolutely. We know what we don’t know in this case. But as Donald Rumsfeld famously said, there are “unknown unknowns” as well. Or something.
Post by Chucky @ WorkAdditionally, when TaimTAIMtards say they "knew" Taim was Taim and
Demandred was Demandred (and I don't know many who are arrogant enough
to do so, even though they were *right*), that's the same as you cunts
"knowing" Taim was Demandred, isn't it? Only, they were right and you
were wrong?
You are absolutely correct. No matter what actually happened, this is completely and utterly correct.
Now can you be a little more magnanimous? Please? I didn’t get to have this conversation out real-time and ppl have always been so tired of it since I got here 10 years ago. It sucks.
Post by Chucky @ WorkPost by AaronPost by Chucky @ WorkPost by AaronAnyway considering the channeling from the Sharans (level and expertise and so
on) flies in the face of everything (every few things) we read about the Sharans
in the earlier books,
Not really.
Actually, was it the leader of the Sharans that is suspected to be assassinated
by channelers every 7 years or something? I think I got it backward and thought
only the leader was a channeler, when I was reading the Sharan bits here.
If so, I retract, seems they DO have a precedent for use of the OP in Sharan
society.
Exactly.
Actually, about the only information we really get about these guys
(that isn't hearsay or myth or gleeman's stories or befuddled
Noamisms)
Hey that’s Jain Farstrider! You show some GODDAMN respect!
Post by Chucky @ Workis from Graendal (I think), who has some Sharan leaders
(leaders, not channelers) in her collection. Now, this was pretty
early in the series so it was obvious that *someone* was there,
overthrowing leaders - and it wasn't Graendal. She didn't say where
she got them from, but it seems obvious they were a gift from whatever
Forsaken (Demandred) was over there fucking shit up. Or that some
Forsaken (Demandred) was there, fucking shit up, and Graendal took the
opportunity to take the unwanted leaders as playthings.
Or she just took them and no one was fucking shit up over there? The fucking shit up bit is your invention after now, and only now, knowing what the hell Demandred was really up to.
Apologies if you were a Demandshara theorist. I don’t think they exist.
She didn’t require a forsaken to fuck a place up before she acquired pets from that place, so this rant doesn’t counter anything. GRAENDAL was “over there” overthrowing leaders, in some of these cases. Could have been the case with Shara too. Still might have been, since this was pre-book 6 and so pre-Demandred’s orders. Orders that TOTALLY seemed to imply something on-screen was going to happen but instead totally only meant something off-scene and missing from 95% of the WOT series was happening. So.
Post by Chucky @ WorkPost by AaronPost by Chucky @ WorkPost by AaronSo I remain unconvinced that he didn't get pissed his Taimandred plot was too
obvious. Yes, see I take no pride in guessing it. It was obvious. That's why the
I believe this should calm you down more than it does...it's not pride, it's not
competition, it's my opinion of what RJ decided to do.
It's fine that you have this theory, but it's only fine until you have
to address the issue of what all the people who disagreed with the
Taimandred Theory were actually thinking at the time. And what this
Taimandretard Theory means about their processes and legitimacy.
Because you fail dismally to do so without making insulting inferrals
about TaimTAIMtards - the ones, I say again, who were *right all
along*.
You know, I don’t see that I do (as I mention in the NEW Taimandred topic I just made! Woo!) but ok. I do see that my use of “obvious” is problematic. I meant that the correlation created is obvious. Certainly the conclusion is up to interpretation, and your interpretation proved correct in the end.
But I am not trying (and I think not succeeding) to say ANYTHING that denigrates the thought processes of TaimTaimtards.
Post by Chucky @ WorkPost by AaronAnd it's not like we don't have precedent that he's a dick.
I just got through saying there is *no* precedent.
Well I picture him as a dick. Is that better?
Might be helpful if I’d actually met him though. If only someone here had.
Post by Chucky @ WorkThere is, however, precedent for him being a bit confusing and clumsy
in the plot twists and storytelling he created. Just not any for him
changing his actual story *just to make fanboys wrong*, which is what
*you fuckheads are saying*. *So stop saying it*.
So it was muddled, all the stuff I laid out in the new topic? Just stupid writing, as I said? Well, I can accept that.
But I certainly don’t feel defeated by your “victory” when it’s because stupid writing misled me. I blame myself, though, for reading stupid writing. I try not to do that.
Post by Chucky @ WorkPost by AaronAlthough I think I get him confused with GRRM...get my fat, old
fantasy writers all mixed up. It was GRRM who had the foolish
fan-lashing quote about all the other shit he was doing instead
of writing the next book, right?
Yes.
Martin doesn't, to my knowledge, change his stories in order to screw
with his fans either though.
Not touching that can of worms.
Not implying there IS a can, either. Or worms. I’m just moving on.
Post by Chucky @ WorkPost by AaronBut as for RJ, let's not forget his attitude about who killed
Asmodean. It was TOTALLY not clear and didn't he mock his
fans saying that he had laid out all the necessary evidence, or
some shit like that?
As I just said, again.
Cut that shit out. Like you don’t ever repeat arguments you made before. I’m just emphasizing it to keep it close-at-hand for this argument. I’m not rehashing just to piss you off. So stahp.
Post by Chucky @ WorkHe reportedly said stuff about this, in real
life. Of course, Jordan also reportedly said that Taim wasn't
Demandred back in '97.
Cool. I don’t know how 1997 pertains to Lord of Chaos. *wikipedias*
Ok so that was after book 7 came out. Sure. That doesn’t really do ANYTHING to this discussion except if you take it to mean he NEVER meant Taim to be Demandred.
Post by Chucky @ WorkHe reportedly said stuff. He did not change his story in order to fuck
with people. He just didn't write the death of Asmodean terribly well.
Or his readers missed the clues. That can happen.
But you know we didn’t. How many times have you reread?
Post by Chucky @ WorkMe, I never really cared enough about Who Killed Asmodean to really
examine said clues. But Graendal was the prime (if slightly dull)
contender.
But you’ve reread and seen there really AREN’T any clues ;D
Post by Chucky @ WorkPost by AaronYeah I can totally believe he'd fuck with fans. Sure I can.
Surprise me. Again. Of course you can believe it. There's no actual
established case of his doing so, there's not even any *theoretical*
case of him doing so on any other plot point, and him doing so this
time gives you some sense of "yeah but I wasn't wrong" on a case where
you *were* wrong and are still bafflingly inexpressibly fucking
butthurt about it. Of course you can believe that shit.
I didn’t have the same process as you guys did. I might be over it now if I had done this realtime. I’m probably also remembering bias from other fans who think this way about him, when in fact all of that is made-up and second-hand BS and I just can’t separate it because I just don’t fucking know.
Fair?
Post by Chucky @ WorkSure. Based on some attitude Jordan may have had in a Q&A with fans,
and some attitude *another author entirely* had with fans. There's
some good solid logic there.
Totally agree with you, that’s all a feeling. But what human being doesn’t occasionally like to prank others?
Even making the correlation strong while meaning it to be otherwise all along is fucking with fans in a sense, from an author who writes with little mystery.
I don’t see how you escape the idea of him fucking with fans—just a little bit—here unless you call it all a huge coincidence that meant nothing, his bad and he’s sorry, and all that.
Post by Chucky @ WorkPost by AaronBut part of this is also probably that my reading experience was
different than yours. I read 6 books in quick succession, up to
Demandred and Taim becoming prominent, all without talking
about the books, as a result of when I started reading them.
Yeah yeah, you said all this before and you didn't get away with it
then, and I see no reason to go into it a second time just because
you've forgotten and defaulted back to your original stance.
Wow. Can ya tone it down a little bit. I’ll fucking be more clear. I’m goddamn SURE this is partly because my reading experience (and NG discussion time frame) is different than yours.
I don’t give a goddamn shit if you excuse me for it or not, I fucking excuse me for it, end of story, thank you and goodnight.
Jesus.
Post by Chucky @ WorkPost by AaronSo the similarities in physical description were all the fresher
and seemed all the more intended to me than they might have
to you and others with your reading experience.
Perhaps that is part of the problem.
Could be.
And then after that outburst, how does your “could be” fit in with your “I’m not letting him get away with it” from above?
Post by Chucky @ WorkWhether Taim was Taim or Taim was Demandred in disguise,
however, you have to see that the similarities in their physical
appearance was nothing more than coincidence. It couldn't be anything
else, regardless. Mazrim Taim already existed and was pretty much a
public figure before Demandred (theoretically) took over his identity.
Yeah there’s no way any other explanation works in a world of mask of mirrors and inverted weaves. My bad.
I included a response in the new topic to this, just so you don’t think I’m ignoring it. It is a fair point and a problem. Not one without a solution.
And please, if you’re going to say THIS inconsistency means a theory is immediately invalid, what about all the other canonical inconsistencies in this series? Don’t make me list them, my brain is tired now but they have been discussed before. All mediocre writing is FULL of such.
Post by Chucky @ WorkPost by AaronPost by Chucky @ WorkBut Demandred never died, he wasn't reborn - he was imprisoned, and
then he was released. Why would he go and take on exactly that same
role (presumably finding the already-existing Taim, on the run from
the Saldaean army, and thinking "hmm, this is a pretty good analogue
of the life I hated so much, and oh snap, he even sort of looks like
me, Ima take that life, it's clearly a winner") all over again, when
he didn't have to? Did the Dark One order him to? Doesn't seem like
it. Did he decide to go into that role because of some deep-seated
psychological disorder that made him *crave* being second-best? You
could make a case for it, but I'm dubious.
See I thought the Dark One very much might have ordered him to do just that.
I don't buy it. There's no evidence for it.
There’s no evidence against it, but there surely IS evidence for it, in my other topic. Why the fuck else were we witness to those 2 DO scenes with Demandred and all the Taim shit in-between?
There was also no fucking evidence for the Sharan surprise. Certainly no more, definitely less, than the above for Taimandred. That’s what makes it a mystery to be solved (“where is Demandred?”)…no overwhelming evidence. But there sure as shit WAS evidence. You referred to it before as “coincidence”.
Post by Chucky @ WorkPost by AaronSeriously, to speak so lowly of this role is to imply you think what Taim
did wasn't incredibly devastating against the Dragon and the forces of
Light. Are you really saying that?
No, I think that's why Taim was named Chosen.
Right so we can agree it was a really fucking important role. I agree with you that Demandred might have chafed at being assigned it. Oh but wait, TAIM chafed at it! And by the way, who ordered Taim to do that? He just took his own initiative as an evil DO worshipping Darkfriend? Interesting. I find that unlikely. It was incredibly risky. We don’t see even powerful darkfriend channelers being that willing to take risks, normally. Too worried about their own hides.
So there’s another aspect of this. Why and when did Taim decide to do what he did? Under whose orders?
And Taim acted just as Demandred would have, “not THIS shit again!”
Furthermore, this would be a perfect revenge for the last time Demandred was the Dragon’s second and felt he was screwed over by it. Turned the tables nicely.
It baffles me that you can’t see it that way if you try.
Post by Chucky @ WorkPost by AaronBecause I thought Taim did quite a bit of damage, almost took
down the entire Black Tower and turned it to the Shadow.
Demandred wouldn't find glory in that?
Of fucking COURSE he would.
Not as second fiddle to Rand. No way.
You’re being too reflexive here in your non-anger. He’s NOT second fiddle! He only SEEMS to be second fiddle. The reality of what is going on is far different, and probably quite rich from Taim’s perspective. Except of course for the few times Rand visits and bosses him around. And he has exactly the sort of contained reaction Demandred would have, in those moments.
All a coincidence of course of course. Every male channeler would chafe like that.
Except they don’t.
Post by Chucky @ WorkShara was where he played out
his psychosis and became the Lews Therin he always wanted to be. The
Black Tower was Lews's little Tar Valon and Demandred would want no
part of it. If you want to make a case for the Dark One *putting*
Demandred there, you'll need to cite something from canon. Which will
probably be difficult, because canon is not the Taimandretard's
friend.
I think I did well enough. But you are right, this actual version of what happened works excellently as well. Perfect for Demandred’s ego and past slights against him.
Post by Chucky @ WorkPost by AaronPost by Chucky @ WorkNo. Far simpler was what some of us saw from the start - that we were
meant to wonder if Taim was a Darkfriend, or a Forsaken in disguise,
and Demandred was the all-too-obvious choice because that's exactly
the role Demandred filled in the Age of Legends and the War of the
Shadow. There were all sorts of little clues thrown in, making one
wonder if he had Age of Legends-level information or mentality, and a
way to escape the taint, but these could *all be explained in other
ways* and *none of them satisfactorily established that Taim was
Demandred*. How could they? Taim was not Demandred.
Indeed. And I think it's more interesting than having Demandred
off-stage the entire time until the very last book, doing fuck-all
He wasn't doing fuck-all, he was very fucking busy.
Ok ok not fuck-all.
Post by Chucky @ WorkWe just didn't get
to see it and that drove a lot of idjits to make idjit-arse theories.
Not all of us though.
This is classic. The only one being rude here is you, and yet I’m supposed to be constantly apologizing for being a Taimandred Theorist. Yes, that’s what I am. Deal with it.
Post by Chucky @ WorkPost by Aaronand providing no entertainment for us at all. Which is how the
canon is now written, of course.
And it's awesome.
Indeed. More awesome for you, I’d imagine, being a TaimTaimtard.
Post by Chucky @ WorkPost by AaronPost by Chucky @ WorkAs we discussed here before at painful length, it's entirely possible
that Jordan had this plan for Demandred and Taim, and when he saw that
a bunch of idjits had taken the Taimandred bait, he laid it on even
thicker in his typical manner. But I don't think he was really
affected that much either way by reader opinion. He had this plan, and
he was pleased enough that people fell for it, and then he added more
clues completely by coincidence, and then he died before he could give
more than hints to the turn-around (these started undeniably around
Winter's Heart, but there was plenty of stuff for us Taimtaimtards way
back from the start, a fact Taimandretards tend to ignore) that was
coming.
Well that's all I'm saying is it's entirely possible, and that's what I
believe he did. Doesn't make your alternative wrong, for me to
think I'm right. Doesn't even make it lesser.
Yeah, you need to work on that because saying what you Taimandretards
do about Jordan's intent sure as shit says something about the
alternative being wrong.
Not in any real sense. Am I made less, proved stupid, by every theory I refuse to accept that is later proven right? Wow, we’re all pretty stupid then. So there’s no insult in it.
If you had an alternate theory that Demandred was in Shara, then you should find this insulting. I think that would be incredible and even more guesswork than Taimandred is. But AFAIK you didn’t have that theory.
You merely rejected Taimandred, and were correct in rejecting it, and I don’t like that you were correct. It doesn’t insult your intelligence that I try to show you why I believed in Taimandred and why I thought you should as well.
Let’s use religion. So here, I’m a Christian, and you’re an atheist (funny, had to go with it. You know what I mean). I really believe this God guy is real and all that, and you say no. I have all this circumstantial evidence and you think it’s all coincidence, the universe was created some other way (pretend you don’t know about astrophysics theory).
In the end, it turns out God was not real, and I totally can’t accept it, those coincidences were SO convincing! I try to get you to see WHY I was so convinced. How does that process insult YOUR intelligence?
Post by Chucky @ WorkPost by AaronPost by Chucky @ WorkAnd Jordan's"twists" were predicted and solved and seen through
(except the Asmodean one, which he kept telling us wasn't a mystery at
all, and he still left it for Sanderson to solve that one rather than
putting something in the books) all the damn time, and he never
changed the story to make the theorists wrong before. He didn't do it
with any other plot points that everyone saw coming. Shit, I could
turn around and claim Jordan did this with *every single theory I was
eventually proved wrong about*, retroactive from the moment the
evidence became insurmountable (from my own completely subjective
point of view), if I was an arrogant fuckface. At least then I would
have more than one case to show precedent for this alleged behaviour
on behalf of the author.
Well if he did it over and over and over again do you think that would
go over well with the fanbase?
Irrelevant, since he didn't, and I am not so intellectually dodgy as
to imply he did just so I can be a little bit less wrong about a dumb
fucking theory I had.
*universal hand sign*
Seriously you are coming off as totally disproportionate here.
Post by Chucky @ WorkPost by AaronMaybe it would, but only if he did it in a fashion that didn't produce inconsistencies.
Well, this one didn't.
/stupid writing. It certainly produced THAT.
Post by Chucky @ WorkEven if he did so. Which, since it obviously
meshes with what I've been saying all along about Taim and Demandred,
I don't think he did.
But you didn’t have a correct alternate theory for Demandred. It’s easy to deny one unlikely theory. It’s hard to come up with the right one. Stop taking credit for the former so heavily, geez.
Post by Chucky @ WorkPost by AaronSure you had a lot of theories that you were wrong on, and so
did I. But most of that is minor stuff, and there's not a whole lot of
mystery in this series, let's be honest. So the few real seeming-mysteries
are naturally going to get more attention and stronger opinions.
Dunno about you, but I expect any author worth my time to
provide a few things to puzzle over, from time to time.
And now the mystery is solved, and you were wrong. Live with it.
That’s what this is. Me, living with it. Ever heard of a “post mortem”?
Post by Chucky @ WorkPost by Aaron"I was right and you were wrong, until Jordan didn't want me to be
right at which point he changed his story so I would be wrong, but at
that point I accepted the new evidence so I went from being right to
being right, while you went from being wrong to being right in a
fraudulent and bogus way that doesn't count."
That's a humorous and whiny way of putting it,
Humourous and whiny, that's Taimandretards to a tee.
As I put in my summary-jpeg, the Taimandred Theorist is a different
animal and far more worthy of respect.
You only put me in the wrong camp because of all the others who have come before me. Your instant attitude on this issue brings out the worst in your debate opponents. As soon as this started, your “fuck yous” were all over the place. But I guess that’s what distinguishes a TaimTaimtard from a TaimTaim Theorist? Should I make a .jpeg too?
Post by Chucky @ WorkPost by Aaronbut I guess whine begets whine so that gets a pass. But I'm not
saying you're right in a fraudulent and bogus way, sorry that
anyone did. You are right, this is canon and the Taimandred
theory is of course overturned.
Good! Spoken like a true Taimandred Theorist. Or at least a
Taimandretard taking his first hesitant steps on the journey towards
the shining goal of Taimandred Theoristism.
You can do it! I believe in you!
Why doesn’t my writing this, over and OVER again, carry through the entire post instead of just this one moment?
A Taimandred Theorist can still discuss why it was so clear to them before it was overturned.
Post by Chucky @ WorkPost by AaronAll we're discussing here is our perception of RJ personally and of
his authorial intent.
Yes. Which is prime and fertile soil for Taimandretards and it's
completely fucking irrelevant because his personality does not trump
what is in the books, and he is (to quote Batman) DEEEEAAAD.
Look fair point on the personality. Authorial intent I’ve already re-spoken to and I think every author likes to be a little unpredicted/able from time to time.
Post by Chucky @ WorkPost by AaronI wonder if your being an author predisposes you toward the point
of view you have, where we need to just shut up and accept what
the author wrote, goddamnit!
To paraphrase.
You do need to shut up and accept what the author wrote.
Incorrect. The only part of that I need to do is the second part. And I do. The rest is a discussion I never got to fully have, and so I’m trying to fucking HAVE. IT.
Post by Chucky @ WorkBut it's not
my being an author that makes me think that way. It is my being a
person who saw the "Taim is Demandred in disguise" theory and went,
"huh, no, I read the story too and it occurred to me that he might be,
but ultimately I rejected it because it doesn't make any fucking sense
In your very extreme opinion. Of course it makes fucking sense or so many of us wouldn’t have liked it so strongly. Seriously, I’m about to go past hand gestures.
Post by Chucky @ Workand all this stuff that is totted up here as 'insurmountable evidence'
can actually be explained in other ways", and then had to deal with
several years of arrogant fuckfaces telling me I was obtuse and had to
accept reality and shut the fuck up.
So it can be explained in more than one way. Doesn’t invalidate the theory. The only thing that invalidates the theory is the fucking clear evidence in later books. Your description of yourself at the time doesn’t invalidate anything except from your perspective, your opinion, which is all yours man, have at it.
Post by Chucky @ WorkTurnaround: not just a precursor to picking a bale of cotton anymore.
Post by AaronYou are...not wrong in that. Taim is not Demandred and that's that.
Yes.
Post by AaronAll else is virtually impossible to unpack due to the number of books,
the varied times at which one or another person might have come to
the above realization, and the myriad different reading situations
of the many books that we all have.
Right.
You want to see a handy demolishing of the Taimandred Theory
*contemporary* with the theory's development, check out Etherman and
http://alt.fan.robert-jordan.narkive.com/IkmOyuJ0/afrj-history-chapter-24-taimandred-and-other->assorted-indentificational-issues
I don’t need to but I will check it out. All I needed was to know what the contemporary objections WERE to the theory, and you’ve listed the strongest of them. All can be easily overcome as RJ has overcome other issues when he so chose.
Post by Chucky @ WorkOne of my favourite lines is "Demandred is possibly forcing them (via
13 black ajah + 13 myrradral) to be Dreadlords. There could be a Black
Tower rebellion, pitting soldiers and dedicated vs. Dreadlord
Asha'man. Logain might also be involved on Rand's side." - from 1998.
When instead it was Taim forcing them, I guess. Not sure why this is your favorite…because it was slightly wrong, or because it was almost right? Your hatred of Taimandredism means I can’t tell which way you’re going with that one.
Post by Chucky @ WorkOh, and "It has deliberately been left out where Dem is. The other
Forsaken have been at one time or another accounted for. Ergo, we are
obviously being set up for a nasty surprise" ("Re: Some Proof -
Taim=Demandred", 14.10.1997. Bahahahaha!
Well of course that was a possibility. TBH I wouldn’t have bet any MONEY on Taimandred (have I surprised you yet?) but I was and always have been stating that’s where it seemed to ME RJ was going with this.
Post by Chucky @ WorkAnd as to authorial intent and behaviour and reports, "Back in 1997,
it was common knowledge on the group that Jordan had admitted that
Taim was not a Forsaken at a book signing. Unfortunately, due to the
general unwillingness of people to give references for their claims, I
have been unable to track down any sort of confirmation. However, that
is irrelevant, as is the fact that Jordan Never Said So. What is
interesting is the treatment the comment was given on the group.
Taim was not a forsaken WHEN? ;D
No no, I mean because he was later…he got promoted sometimes after LOC.
Post by Chucky @ Work"It has been discussed in an earlier chapter how Jordan's alleged
comments at signings and interviews were often accepted as canon by
the early posters. Not so, however, with the Taim comment."
*snicker*
Well fair enough.
Post by Chucky @ WorkSo calm the fuck down and understand I'm just saying RJ isn't a great
writer of mysteries who can bamboozle his audience all the while
giving you everything you need to know. Asmodean. So when he
did give evidence of something, I thought it was a mystery to be
solved (when it might have been nothing at all from the start),
and jumped on it.
Right.
Oh, and you seem to be confusing this discussion with other private
e-mail conversations we've had. This *is* a competition, and you
*lost*, and the points are *mine*, so suck it up. Bitch.
Zero points awarded on account of not having the winning theory of where Demandred ACTUALLY was (let’s not forget, that’s what the Taimandred Theory was all about), so you have pulled ahead by exactly…zero. I don’t see what you’re so excited about, not having bought into a theory. I don’t buy into a theory every fucking DAY.
Recall the videos I’ve sent you about what Americans believe. I guess I can take some small pride in not believing in Lizard Overlords, but I do try to contain myself.
-Aaron
*YUO CAN'T KNOW!!1! beanie*