Discussion:
A Memory of Light in review
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Aaron
2013-03-29 18:24:23 UTC
Permalink
So, I really enjoyed it overall. He writes well enough. The book was better, I'd say, than at least a few of the WOT installments. Numbers 7, 8, 10, 11, if I've got that right, for starters maybe?

*spoiler alert*

Although I read this damn book twice already, should be time to drop the spoiler alerts.

Ah well.
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The Good:
Cool traveling portal uses. I believe I'd seen almost all of those as fan ideas, which makes it even cooler. And the lava portal is very similar to a scene from the Donaldson duology "The mirror of her dreams"..."A man rides through".

All the nostalgia of the main characters doing what it is they did most throughout the series. At first it annoyed me, but I quickly got over it.

On that subject, some of those main characters getting a come-uppance via a nice comeback, like Perrin to Nynaeve about wolves vs. dogs.

Less Faile

Mat no longer being tied to the horn...gave some nice moments for me at least.

Perrin stopped being a pussy!

A good ending, better than many authors' attempts, I'd say. I was recently lamenting to Chucky, and have lamented over the years to many others, that so very MANY authors suck at endings. I thought this was...pretty well done.

An effective bunch of Forsaken, finally.

Red Ajah coming to their fucking senses and doing some good in the world.

Lan did it! You know what I mean! Woo!

Warder bonds being used against forces of the Light, Rand specifically. Another fan idea IIRC.

Ogier kicking some ass!

Tuon finally making some goddamn sense.

A use for Min's talent that brings her acclaim!

An army of Myrddraal!

The Bad:
Still too much Faile.

One-sided Balefire usage for far too long. No way would the Light have been holding so well under those conditions. He even illustrated that in one scene just before Egwene discovers the counter to balefire.

I know, I know, the counter needed to be held back for effect. But, basically, these battles should have been lost long before, under those conditions.

No one can check the generals for compulsion and remove it, regularly? Seems they should have expected that move by the shadow.

Faile didn't die.

No 4-way with Rand! That's right, I think pregnant women are hot. I don't discriminate against any kind of pretty women ;D

Ok I can see I'm reaching, maybe more will shake out in the specifics below. Basically my biggest problem was the battles were naive and poorly planned out in terms of overall vision, like the balefire issue above.

The Specific:
So as I was reading, both times, I dog-eared several moments about which I had particular issue or interest, wanting to see what others who enjoy this series thought of those moments. So here they are, by page (but not paragraph, sorry, not going THAT deep with it):

Page 27: Very awesome to see where Isam/Luc grew up and what happened to the Aiel men channelers. Loved this and all related bits. I did find it a little silly that Isam would have assumed male Aiel channelers immediately stopped coming to the Blight just because the taint was cleansed...what with all the doubt out there that surely he'd noticed. But anyway.

Page 32: Bayle says "what want you to do now?" Yeah, uhh, I knew Illianers added "do" all the time, but I didn't think they rearranged their sentences in Yoda-like (or is it just Irish Brogue-like?) fashion....

Page 93: Yeah, the gholam...s? What about the other ones? You would imagine, would you not, that the Great Lord would do it's damndest to release all the others and set them to task, in the Last Battle.... But we only had to deal with the one.

Page 103: Pevara bonds Androl, the reverse, after a fashion, of what he did to her. Then down that page a bit, he bonds her back (what did he do before?), and she is surprised by it, and he says she did it first. Wait.... Ise confused....
Cool how they are totally in one another's heads after that.

Page 325: Cute interaction with Moiraine. It was good to have her back, if only for a bit part (in terms of dialogue at least).

Page 328: 2 myrdraal at once! So, so fucking cool!

Page 331: Not exactly sure why I have this one marked, but I think this is it. 2 paces between horses makes a tight line? I would have thought that a line could be quite a bit tighter than 6 feet between horses.... I'm trying to picture the cavalry charges from the LOTR movies, they were almost touching.... But I don't know any more about such battles than, say, Sanderson does. Hey. Sanders...Sanderson.... Just realized that.

Ok no that's a lie, but was waiting for a chance to drop it in.

Page 345: Gawyn battling Trollocs using a shield. Is a shield truly an effective tactic against a foe that is so much stronger than you? Sounds like he's TAKING the blows, not letting them glance by or avoiding them, which has always been my understanding of what you must do with a foe that is so much more powerful than you are.

Page 376: Direct detailing of a Trolloc passing through a gateway. So this is as good a time as any to ask why in the hell luring and then opening gateways wasn't a widely used tactic against the shadowspawn? Gateways up into the air perhaps, so that the Sharans would fall to their death? Such a waste....

Page 388: I like how Aviendha's relationship with Rand has been softened a little, made less annoying with just a LITTLE bit of fucking respect for the Dragon Reborn. Also, nice hinting at the Callendor situation, making us wonder what the plan is, what the flaw is, exactly.

Page 455: Lan...why the HELL would he use a sword form not intended for horseback use, from horseback? Surely he's good enough to have other choices? I just thought that writing was very clumsy.

Page 458: OK there's a problem here with something neat that Sanderson decided to create. It seems that he is able to see Rand et al. in the cavern, in the world of dreams even though they technically entered there in the real world. And slayer is attacking them in the world of dreams and somehow that's supposed to be dangerous even though they are in the real world.... As opposed to dropping into the real world like he usually does, to kill. But then when he shifts away and Perrin follows, the Red Veils are now there in the world of dreams? What?

Or did they shift to the real world? Well, not possible because Perrin doesn't know how, yet. And they couldn't have BEEN in the real world because you don't shift into the world of dreams, without channeling, immediately like Slayer did, and again Perrin didn't know how.

Basically I can't think of a combination of events that makes sense with what was written on this page.

Page 481: I feel that Bashere's outburst here (against Tam) was totally out of character. Almost as if the person writing this didn't really know how Bashere typically behaved....

Page 485: Bryne being initially disturbed that Uno isn't an officer is totally out of character, both for Bryne being who he is, and for a general during a deadly battle.

Page 531: Totally awesome use of a gateway, should have been sooner and happened more.

Page 558: I really liked the character development of Galad here. Turned him into a real person instead of a caricature.

Page 590: I thought Moghedien said or implied that a weave to detect male channeling wasn't a real thing. She pretended to teach it to Nynaeve et al.... Did they learn it somehow? When? Why was that not a bigger deal?

Page 612: Daishar Knob is the stupidest place name in this whole book. And, on a side note...Mat can Travel with the amulet on? I would think that counts as being affected directly by channeling....

Page 619: Great solution against Draghkar...against I'm pretty sure I saw fans discussing this before.

Page 694: I like these insights into Demandred. At the same time I kept wondering how in the HELL he could not know that the Dragon was confronting the DO in the cave.... Everyone else seemed to fucking know it, Thom certainly had to fight off several BA....

Page 699: Uhh, again not an expert but I'm pretty fucking sure a swordbreaker isn't a "sword breaker" because if you just raise it up, it breaks the enemy sword. Don't you have to get the sword into the V between swordbreaker blade and side-blade (don't know the term) and twist?

Page 711: I really liked the explanation of the way the Seanchan work, on this page. Again made them less caricatures and more real for me.

Page 765: Yeah if this balefire channeling has been going on all along, this would already be over.

Page 787: Is Mellar that desperate? Not only is she very pregnant, but soon she's about to be very bloodied up by having babies cut out of her.... Who wants a piece of that pussay?

Page 811: I'm stupid. Who was the woman cast from her throne and made a puppet? Elayne's mommy? What was her--Morgase? She has so little mention in this book, why would he mention her at that critical moment? Or is he talking about someone else? Who?

Page 834: Super-awesome strategy for the cannons. And, Moghedien: ha ha!

Page 847: Logain has changed so much, I'm not sure I buy it, but I'm glad he changed back and did the right thing

Page 856: Finally! Finally we'll see Perrin stop being a pussy, stop holding back! Maybe he'll accidentally hit Faile too hard and.... Nah too much to hope for. And yes I know I'm awful.

Page 864: Shaisam? How the hell did he come up with that name? I hate it.

Page 874: Why didn't he think of shifting further along Slayer's intended path? That would have been cool.

Page 876: Again I'm pretty sure this is wrong. Blood doesn't actually help crops to grow....

Page 880: "in her haste, picked at the wrong thread." What? From her thoughts just above, she WANTED it to explode. So why did it get written as a mistake made in haste?

Page 889: Great solution for Lanfear, glad Perrin was able to do what Rand never would have been able to do. And, finally Faile is useful, if only this one time.

OK I think that's all. Discuss.

-Aaron
TB
2013-03-30 19:45:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron
So, I really enjoyed it overall. He writes well enough. The book was better, I'd say, than at least a few of the WOT installments. Numbers 7, 8, 10, 11, if I've got that right, for starters maybe?
*spoiler alert*
Although I read this damn book twice already, should be time to drop the spoiler alerts.
Ah well.
...
...
...
...
Cool traveling portal uses. I believe I'd seen almost all of those as fan ideas, which makes it even cooler. And the lava portal is very similar to a scene from the Donaldson duology "The mirror of her dreams"..."A man rides through".
All the nostalgia of the main characters doing what it is they did most throughout the series. At first it annoyed me, but I quickly got over it.
On that subject, some of those main characters getting a come-uppance via a nice comeback, like Perrin to Nynaeve about wolves vs. dogs.
Less Faile
Mat no longer being tied to the horn...gave some nice moments for me at least.
Perrin stopped being a pussy!
A good ending, better than many authors' attempts, I'd say. I was recently lamenting to Chucky, and have lamented over the years to many others, that so very MANY authors suck at endings. I thought this was...pretty well done.
An effective bunch of Forsaken, finally.
Red Ajah coming to their fucking senses and doing some good in the world.
Lan did it! You know what I mean! Woo!
Warder bonds being used against forces of the Light, Rand specifically. Another fan idea IIRC.
Ogier kicking some ass!
Tuon finally making some goddamn sense.
A use for Min's talent that brings her acclaim!
An army of Myrddraal!
Still too much Faile.
One-sided Balefire usage for far too long. No way would the Light have been holding so well under those conditions. He even illustrated that in one scene just before Egwene discovers the counter to balefire.
I know, I know, the counter needed to be held back for effect. But, basically, these battles should have been lost long before, under those conditions.
No one can check the generals for compulsion and remove it, regularly? Seems they should have expected that move by the shadow.
Nynaeve's the only one who is good at detecting Compulsion, and the
only one who can Heal it.
Post by Aaron
Faile didn't die.
That surprised me to.

A similar bad point: Lan impailing himself on Demandred's sword in
order to kill him, then sliding off the sword and onto the ground, yet
still surviving!
Post by Aaron
Page 481: I feel that Bashere's outburst here (against Tam) was totally out of character. Almost as if the person writing this didn't really know how Bashere typically behaved....
Page 485: Bryne being initially disturbed that Uno isn't an officer is totally out of character, both for Bryne being who he is, and for a general during a deadly battle.
I bet that the above two incidents were early signs that those two had
been Compulsed!
Post by Aaron
Page 880: "in her haste, picked at the wrong thread." What? From her thoughts just above, she WANTED it to explode. So why did it get written as a mistake made in haste?
Maybe she had intended to pick at another thread that would enhance
the explosive effect, but grabbed the wrong thread, so got less of an
explosion than she wanted.

PP 748-749: Rand discovers that killing the DO would render everyone
into vapid simperers! The effect is similar to the effect of being
Turned to the Dark!

PP 827-829: The Hinderstappers battle the Shadow's forces at the river
and die, then come back to life the next morning to fight the stunned
Dreadlords!
Aaron
2013-04-01 11:50:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by TB
Post by Aaron
No one can check the generals for compulsion and remove it, regularly? Seems they should have expected that move by the shadow.
Nynaeve's the only one who is good at detecting Compulsion, and the
only one who can Heal it.
This was true prior to the final book(s) but so was the case with many of these new weaves and talents. There are many examples of such being developed leading up to the last book, by other Aes Sedai. So I was complaining that this wasn't another that was developed.
Post by TB
Post by Aaron
Faile didn't die.
That surprised me to.
A similar bad point: Lan impailing himself on Demandred's sword in
order to kill him, then sliding off the sword and onto the ground, yet
still surviving!
Yeah! So now, after Lan's description of Sheathing the Sword in the first book, now we have 2 characters who did it and lived. Lame!
Post by TB
Post by Aaron
Page 481: I feel that Bashere's outburst here (against Tam) was totally out of character. Almost as if the person writing this didn't really know how Bashere typically behaved....
Page 485: Bryne being initially disturbed that Uno isn't an officer is totally out of character, both for Bryne being who he is, and for a general during a deadly battle.
I bet that the above two incidents were early signs that those two had
been Compulsed!
Well, possibly. Bashere's outburst was certainly a result of his compulsion confusing him and making him more sure he was still leading well. Bryne's was just a side thought, but not one I would expect a leader like him to have.

Ever heard an enlisted person (like Uno) say "don't call me 'sir'! I work for a living!"?
Post by TB
Post by Aaron
Page 880: "in her haste, picked at the wrong thread." What? From her thoughts just above, she WANTED it to explode. So why did it get written as a mistake made in haste?
Maybe she had intended to pick at another thread that would enhance
the explosive effect, but grabbed the wrong thread, so got less of an
explosion than she wanted.
Unlikely since supposedly this is completely unpredictable.
Post by TB
PP 748-749: Rand discovers that killing the DO would render everyone
into vapid simperers! The effect is similar to the effect of being
Turned to the Dark!
Are you saying the DOs argument here didn't work for you? I haven't delved into it beyond the surface, but largely I agreed because in effect Rand WOULD be "turning" everyone to the Light. I dunno.
Post by TB
PP 827-829: The Hinderstappers battle the Shadow's forces at the river
and die, then come back to life the next morning to fight the stunned
Dreadlords!
You no likey? I thought that was fun, gave purpose to that crazy town....

-Aaron
Chucky @ Work
2013-04-02 07:28:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron
So, I really enjoyed it overall. He writes well enough. The book was
better, I'd say, than at least a few of the WOT installments. Numbers
7, 8, 10, 11, if I've got that right, for starters maybe?
Agreed.
Post by Aaron
*spoiler alert*
Although I read this damn book twice already, should be time to drop the spoiler alerts.
Ah well.
...
...
...
...
Cool traveling portal uses. I believe I'd seen almost all of those as fan ideas,
which makes it even cooler. And the lava portal is very similar to a scene
from the Donaldson duology "The mirror of her dreams"..."A man rides
through".
That was neat. I guess it was good that gateways were so difficult,
which made Androl's Talent so devastating but didn't render every
other weapon in the story irrelevant.
Post by Aaron
All the nostalgia of the main characters doing what it is they did
most throughout the series. At first it annoyed me, but I quickly
got over it.
Hee, yeah.
Post by Aaron
On that subject, some of those main characters getting a
come-uppance via a nice comeback, like Perrin to Nynaeve
about wolves vs. dogs.
Heh, I do believe I missed that one. I have a vague recollection but I
missed its significance ... except insofar as any time Perrin says
anything about wolves, it's all Fraught with Meaning.
Post by Aaron
Less Faile
Hee.
Post by Aaron
Mat no longer being tied to the horn...gave some nice moments
for me at least.
*nod*
Post by Aaron
Perrin stopped being a pussy!
Hooray! His fight with Slayer was too drawn-out, but that was the
style of their enmity. And the way Perrin was owning channelers and
making them go "ZOMGWTF" was cool. It's just a weave.

His hammer, and the whole "power-wrought weapons" thing, never really
had a chance to go anywhere.
Post by Aaron
A good ending, better than many authors' attempts, I'd say. I was
recently lamenting to Chucky, and have lamented over the years
to many others, that so very MANY authors suck at endings. I
thought this was...pretty well done.
Agreed.
Post by Aaron
An effective bunch of Forsaken, finally.
Yes!
Post by Aaron
Red Ajah coming to their fucking senses and doing some good
in the world.
Yes! And kudos to Sanderson for taking some interchangeable Aes Sedai
like Pevara and others, and making them distinctive and interesting.
Post by Aaron
Lan did it! You know what I mean! Woo!
Warder bonds being used against forces of the Light, Rand
specifically. Another fan idea IIRC.
Alanna was a terrible person all along, she never should have kept
that bond. I was hoping she would die and Rand would go nuts, and that
would be what finally killed his body but he would still have been
able to escape into Moridin's body. I don't know, would have added
some tension?
Post by Aaron
Ogier kicking some ass!
Yes indeed.
Post by Aaron
Tuon finally making some goddamn sense.
Enhh ... *flip-flops hand* She was still a bit of an irritating
arrogant dumbarse.
Post by Aaron
A use for Min's talent that brings her acclaim!
Yes, that was fairly unexpected and cool. And to be fair, would not
have happened (most likely) if Tuon had stopped being an irritating
arrogant dumbarse.
Post by Aaron
An army of Myrddraal!
Yeah, that was sweet.
Post by Aaron
Still too much Faile.
Heh. And not just Faile, but Faile In Peril Again. I mean, come on!
Call yourself a Saldaean?
Post by Aaron
One-sided Balefire usage for far too long. No way would the Light
have been holding so well under those conditions. He even illustrated
that in one scene just before Egwene discovers the counter to balefire.
Yeah, seems they weren't wiped out quite so dramatically as they
should have been, given how dangerous balefire was - the way it undid
bolstering / troop-moving actions performed by channelers, leaving
other parts of the army ready to be destroyed ... I think that was
just *so* devastating, the author was sort of obliged to gloss over it
a bit.

The cracks-in-the-universe were cool though.
Post by Aaron
I know, I know, the counter needed to be held back for effect.
But, basically, these battles should have been lost long before,
under those conditions.
Agreed.
Post by Aaron
No one can check the generals for compulsion and remove it,
regularly? Seems they should have expected that move by the shadow.
True, but I don't think it was Compulsion as such. Just interference
with them in the dream, power o' suggestion and all that.
Post by Aaron
Faile didn't die.
After so much fucking around, I would have been pissed if she'd died.
Not because I liked her (although I have never hated her as much as a
lot of readers seemed to), but because Perrin wasted so much of my
time looking after her, moping about her, arguing with her, worrying
about her ... to lose her at the end would just be a kick in the balls
I could live without.
Post by Aaron
No 4-way with Rand! That's right, I think pregnant women are
hot. I don't discriminate against any kind of pretty women ;D
You're a fair and just man.
Post by Aaron
Ok I can see I'm reaching, maybe more will shake out in the specifics
below. Basically my biggest problem was the battles were naive and
poorly planned out in terms of overall vision, like the balefire issue
above.
The balefire example I think was intentionally gimped, because (as I
found in the Steal) using it properly would have destroyed the
universe ages ago.

But yeah, overall I don't have the expertise to comment on the
battles, they seemed fine to me but I'm sure they were simplified and
incorrect in a plethora of ways.
Post by Aaron
So as I was reading, both times, I dog-eared several moments about which I
had particular issue or interest, wanting to see what others who enjoy this
series thought of those moments. So here they are, by page (but not
Page 27: Very awesome to see where Isam/Luc grew up and what happened
to the Aiel men channelers. Loved this and all related bits. I did find it a little
silly that Isam would have assumed male Aiel channelers immediately
stopped coming to the Blight just because the taint was cleansed...
what with all the doubt out there that surely he'd noticed. But anyway.
Yeah, that was cool. I liked the way they left that stuff (like Shara)
largely untouched but then brought it in at the end.

I was a bit puzzled by how it really worked in practice. So, male
channelers from the Aiel went there, and some were turned by force and
others went nuts and others, maybe, turned voluntarily? There were a
*lot* of them. And a lot of them couldn't channel. So, there were
non-channelers there too, it seems like *all* the Aiel who ever went
to the Blight ended up there. Presumably men and women, so they could
breed up a community there. Well, okay.

I liked it, anyway.
Post by Aaron
Page 32: Bayle says "what want you to do now?" Yeah, uhh, I knew
Illianers added "do" all the time, but I didn't think they rearranged
their sentences in Yoda-like (or is it just Irish Brogue-like?) fashion....
Heh, yeah. A bit messy.
Post by Aaron
Page 93: Yeah, the gholam...s? What about the other ones? You
would imagine, would you not, that the Great Lord would do it's
damndest to release all the others and set them to task, in the
Last Battle.... But we only had to deal with the one.
I was puzzled by this too. I thought there was only one. Okay, maybe
there were others sealed up in stasis pods, but nobody could get to
them (not even the Dark One, I can only assume). Otherwise, it would
have been done.
Post by Aaron
Page 103: Pevara bonds Androl, the reverse, after a fashion, of what
he did to her. Then down that page a bit, he bonds her back (what
did he do before?), and she is surprised by it, and he says she did
it first. Wait.... Ise confused....
I don't remember being confused by this. He channels (this is after
they have a rapey linking experiment and ignore each other's
safe-words, right?), she panics and bonds him (using the same theory
as the link they had already done - I assume because being a Red, she
never really learned the bonding weave properly), then he bonds her
because she didn't stop him from channeling.

She bonded him first, but he was being a jerk with the link (because
he was intoxicated by the power).
Post by Aaron
Cool how they are totally in one another's heads after that.
Yeah, that was fun.
Post by Aaron
Page 325: Cute interaction with Moiraine. It was good to have
her back, if only for a bit part (in terms of dialogue at least).
Agreed.
Post by Aaron
Page 328: 2 myrdraal at once! So, so fucking cool!
Lan rules.
Post by Aaron
Page 331: Not exactly sure why I have this one marked, but I think this
is it. 2 paces between horses makes a tight line? I would have thought
that a line could be quite a bit tighter than 6 feet between horses....
Horses jostle a lot, the riders need a bit of space, there's lances
and sword-arcs and all that sort of thing to take into account ... I
don't know, seems fine.
Post by Aaron
I'm trying to picture the cavalry charges from the LOTR movies,
they were almost touching....
Oh right, well, as long as we have academic consistency on this!
*grin*
Post by Aaron
But I don't know any more about such battles than, say,
Sanderson does. Hey. Sanders...Sanderson.... Just realized that.
...

OK.
Post by Aaron
Ok no that's a lie, but was waiting for a chance to drop it in.
Right.
Post by Aaron
Page 345: Gawyn battling Trollocs using a shield. Is a shield truly an
effective tactic against a foe that is so much stronger than you?
Sounds like he's TAKING the blows, not letting them glance by or
avoiding them, which has always been my understanding of
what you must do with a foe that is so much more powerful than
you are.
Indeed, seems a smart way to get your arm smashed.

Actually speaking of Lord of the Rings, this reminded me of the scene
in the third movie where (after the troll fight in the first movie)
Aragorn is exchanging sword-and-shield blows with a troll in full
armour. Nice superpowers-escalation there, Elessar.
Post by Aaron
Page 376: Direct detailing of a Trolloc passing through a gateway. So
this is as good a time as any to ask why in the hell luring and then opening
gateways wasn't a widely used tactic against the shadowspawn?
Gateways up into the air perhaps, so that the Sharans would fall to
their death? Such a waste....
Yeah, I guess they had to walk a line of gateways being super-useful,
but also quite tiring and only available to powerful channelers (and
Androl) or circles. Only the really powerful ones could make
deathgates, for example.

Maybe a volley of fireballs (or ten) were easier and more damaging
than a gateway trick.

Plus, the author had to maintain the balance of not overusing them, so
when they did get used in fun ways, it was actually interesting and
not just another gateway ruse.
Post by Aaron
Page 388: I like how Aviendha's relationship with Rand has been
softened a little, made less annoying with just a LITTLE bit of fucking
respect for the Dragon Reborn. Also, nice hinting at the
Callendor situation, making us wonder what the plan is, what
the flaw is, exactly.
Yeah, since Rand used Callandor to attempt to wipe out the Seanchan
back in Path of Daggers or even earlier, and Cadsuane told him about
the flaw (heck, even as far back as the Stone of Tear there was
something wrong), I do like how well-planned and long-buildup this
seemed to be.
Post by Aaron
Page 455: Lan...why the HELL would he use a sword form not intended
for horseback use, from horseback? Surely he's good enough to have
other choices? I just thought that writing was very clumsy.
*shrug* I guess.
Post by Aaron
Page 458: OK there's a problem here with something neat that
Sanderson decided to create. It seems that he is able to see Rand et al.
in the cavern, in the world of dreams even though they technically
entered there in the real world. And slayer is attacking them in the
world of dreams and somehow that's supposed to be dangerous even
though they are in the real world.... As opposed to dropping into the
real world like he usually does, to kill. But then when he shifts away
and Perrin follows, the Red Veils are now there in the world of
dreams? What?
Yeah, there was definitely something weird going on there, or at least
so I thought. The way people kept coming and going, almost like they
were sleepers appearing in the World of Dreams and then vanishing
again ... but then there was also the fact that there were freaking
*aliens* there fighting their own Last Battle ... that's when I
realised that it was the proximity to the Bore. It made the boundary
between the worlds thin, so things were bleeding back and forth.

Still, only the initiated could really see much. To ignorant
bystanders, Perrin and Slayer were popping in and out of existence.
Only in "Tel'Aran'Rhiod" were the ghostly real-world shades visible.
Post by Aaron
Or did they shift to the real world? Well, not possible because
Perrin doesn't know how, yet. And they couldn't have BEEN
in the real world because you don't shift into the world of
dreams, without channeling, immediately like Slayer did, and
again Perrin didn't know how.
Right. I think most of this stuff happened in Shayol Ghul, so it gets
a pass because anything can happen there.
Post by Aaron
Basically I can't think of a combination of events that makes
sense with what was written on this page.
I think it could have been done better. There did seem to be a lot of
rule-breaking bleed-over that should not have happened. It's not like
the fighting people were asleep or anything!
Post by Aaron
Page 481: I feel that Bashere's outburst here (against Tam) was
totally out of character. Almost as if the person writing this didn't
really know how Bashere typically behaved....
Wasn't Bashere also being mind-fucked?
Post by Aaron
Page 485: Bryne being initially disturbed that Uno isn't an officer
is totally out of character, both for Bryne being who he is,
and for a general during a deadly battle.
True. Mind-fucked.
Post by Aaron
Page 531: Totally awesome use of a gateway, should have
been sooner and happened more.
Yes.

I am not looking these up. What use? They were all mostly awesome.
Post by Aaron
Page 558: I really liked the character development of Galad here.
Turned him into a real person instead of a caricature.
Agreed.

And messing up his pretty face helped.
Post by Aaron
Page 590: I thought Moghedien said or implied that a weave to
detect male channeling wasn't a real thing. She pretended to
teach it to Nynaeve et al.... Did they learn it somehow?
When? Why was that not a bigger deal?
Yeah, I thought it was something Moghedien *thought* was not real, in
another example of Age-of-Legends-centric arrogance ... but Cadsuane
had a trinket that showed male channeling (maybe Moghedien was
half-lying, and there were ter'angreal but no actual *weaves*?), I
thought. Yeah, could have been made a bigger deal. After all the
whining about how men could sense a woman channeling automatically.
Post by Aaron
Page 612: Daishar Knob is the stupidest place name in this whole book.
Agreed.
Post by Aaron
And, on a side note...Mat can Travel with the amulet on? I would think
that counts as being affected directly by channeling....
Nah, there was precedent for this, the way he lured the gholam through
to the Skimming plane. Gateways don't dissolve around him.

I guess this also means that gholam, unlike Trollocs, could Travel
anyway.
Post by Aaron
Page 619: Great solution against Draghkar...against I'm pretty
sure I saw fans discussing this before.
Yep, pretty neat.
Post by Aaron
Page 694: I like these insights into Demandred. At the same time I kept
wondering how in the HELL he could not know that the Dragon was
confronting the DO in the cave.... Everyone else seemed to fucking
know it, Thom certainly had to fight off several BA....
Yeah. And Demandred has *been there*, so he'd know it was a cave.
Post by Aaron
Page 699: Uhh, again not an expert but I'm pretty fucking sure a
swordbreaker isn't a "sword breaker" because if you just raise it up, it
breaks the enemy sword. Don't you have to get the sword into
the V between swordbreaker blade and side-blade (don't know
the term) and twist?
I'd say so. Maybe it depends on the crappiness of the sword quality
and she speed and angle of the swing.
Post by Aaron
Page 711: I really liked the explanation of the way the Seanchan
work, on this page. Again made them less caricatures and more
real for me.
Agreed, although I'm not sure what you're referring to.
Post by Aaron
Page 765: Yeah if this balefire channeling has been going on all
along, this would already be over.
True. Something to be glossed over, I think. But there were probably
better ways to do it.
Post by Aaron
Page 787: Is Mellar that desperate? Not only is she very pregnant,
but soon she's about to be very bloodied up by having babies
cut out of her.... Who wants a piece of that pussay?
Yeah, but he's like a psycho-horny sleazebag version of you. And his
driving obsession has been Elayne all along. I thought it added to his
nasty-creep vibe very nicely.
Post by Aaron
Page 811: I'm stupid. Who was the woman cast from her throne and
made a puppet? Elayne's mommy? What was her--Morgase?
Can't remember who was talking about it. I think it was referring to
Morgase, yes.
Post by Aaron
She has so little mention in this book, why would he mention her
at that critical moment? Or is he talking about someone else? Who?
Well, Morgase's downfall was a pretty big deal. One of the first
nicely effective things a Forsaken did, actually, in the early books.
Made me momentarily have hope for them.
Post by Aaron
Page 834: Super-awesome strategy for the cannons. And,
Moghedien: ha ha!
Yes, and yes.
Post by Aaron
Page 847: Logain has changed so much, I'm not sure I buy it,
but I'm glad he changed back and did the right thing
He changed? We never really got much of a stable look at him, you
know. He was a captured False Dragon, then a gentled male channeler,
then a healed runaway Asha'man, then a victim of attempted Turning ...
that's all over the map.
Post by Aaron
Page 856: Finally! Finally we'll see Perrin stop being a pussy, stop
holding back!
Yeah, but I had a bit of a problem with this, myself. First of all, it
was too long coming. Okay, dramatic effect, granted ... but still,
ugh.

And secondly, he'd had epiphanies like this before. Liek when he
crippled that Aiel to get information about Faile. Seems to me he's
been struggling "hammer vs. axe" and letting his inner wolf go, and
finding his balance, repeatedly through this series. This last time
just didn't have the impact it could have, as a result.
Post by Aaron
Maybe he'll accidentally hit Faile too hard and.... Nah too much to
hope for. And yes I know I'm awful.
Hee. Yes you are.
Post by Aaron
Page 864: Shaisam? How the hell did he come up with that name? I hate it.
*snicker*

Some melding of Shai'tan and Isam?
Post by Aaron
Page 874: Why didn't he think of shifting further along Slayer's
intended path? That would have been cool.
Yeah.
Post by Aaron
Page 876: Again I'm pretty sure this is wrong. Blood doesn't actually help crops to grow....
Um, well, okay. I guess.
Post by Aaron
Page 880: "in her haste, picked at the wrong thread." What? From
her thoughts just above, she WANTED it to explode. So why did
it get written as a mistake made in haste?
Maybe she was trying to finesse it a bit more?
Post by Aaron
Page 889: Great solution for Lanfear, glad Perrin was able to do what
Rand never would have been able to do.
Yes. Holy crap, I laughed aloud when this happened.
Post by Aaron
And, finally Faile is useful, if only this one time.
Hee.
Post by Aaron
OK I think that's all. Discuss.
There you go. Thanks for the review, this was sweet. I guess we could
be trying to divide stuff up into threads, but seriously, screw that.
We're totally good at dealing with epic texts.




***@w
--
13 of 12, the CMM Collective
CHOW:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/chow-a-dance-with-dragons/
Give a hoot, read my book:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2012/07/18/arsebook-my-rear-in-status-2011/
Aaron
2013-04-03 12:37:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
*spoiler alert*
...
...
...
...
Cool traveling portal uses. I believe I'd seen almost all of those as fan ideas,
which makes it even cooler. And the lava portal is very similar to a scene
from the Donaldson duology "The mirror of her dreams"..."A man rides
through".
That was neat. I guess it was good that gateways were so difficult,
which made Androl's Talent so devastating but didn't render every
other weapon in the story irrelevant.
Exactly. It was a great way also for Talents to still be impressive vs. raw power, as you allude to.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
On that subject, some of those main characters getting a
come-uppance via a nice comeback, like Perrin to Nynaeve
about wolves vs. dogs.
Heh, I do believe I missed that one. I have a vague recollection but I
missed its significance ... except insofar as any time Perrin says
anything about wolves, it's all Fraught with Meaning.
Near the end Nyn tells him to "sit!", and he says dogs obey but wolves do not. Booyah bitch!
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Perrin stopped being a pussy!
Hooray! His fight with Slayer was too drawn-out, but that was the
style of their enmity. And the way Perrin was owning channelers and
making them go "ZOMGWTF" was cool. It's just a weave.
Totally. Although the Forsaken he wowed had experience with Slayer so they should have been aware of this.
Post by Chucky @ Work
His hammer, and the whole "power-wrought weapons" thing, never really
had a chance to go anywhere.
Alas.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Red Ajah coming to their fucking senses and doing some good
in the world.
Yes! And kudos to Sanderson for taking some interchangeable Aes Sedai
like Pevara and others, and making them distinctive and interesting.
Indeed. Although Pevara was a bit distinctive and interesting to me already. Still, I got her confused with one or more other "-ara" aes sedai, I must admit.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Alanna was a terrible person all along, she never should have kept
that bond. I was hoping she would die and Rand would go nuts, and that
would be what finally killed his body but he would still have been
able to escape into Moridin's body. I don't know, would have added
some tension?
Yeah they could have considered that instead of (I think) using the "flaw in Callandor" to do so. But I was ok either way, just as long as she died a slow and painful death.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Tuon finally making some goddamn sense.
Enhh ... *flip-flops hand* She was still a bit of an irritating
arrogant dumbarse.
Well, to be sure. But seeing her thoughts about why Seanchan do this, or that, helped me to go "yeah I don't agree but I can see how someone might think that way."
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
A use for Min's talent that brings her acclaim!
Yes, that was fairly unexpected and cool. And to be fair, would not
have happened (most likely) if Tuon had stopped being an irritating
arrogant dumbarse.
Hadn't stopped? Sorry I'm missing your point there unless that was a grammar-po.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Still too much Faile.
Heh. And not just Faile, but Faile In Peril Again. I mean, come on!
Call yourself a Saldaean?
Well at least she took it like a man.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
One-sided Balefire usage for far too long. No way would the Light
have been holding so well under those conditions. He even illustrated
that in one scene just before Egwene discovers the counter to balefire.
Yeah, seems they weren't wiped out quite so dramatically as they
should have been, given how dangerous balefire was - the way it undid
bolstering / troop-moving actions performed by channelers, leaving
other parts of the army ready to be destroyed ... I think that was
just *so* devastating, the author was sort of obliged to gloss over it
a bit.
The other option was to, you know, NOT have the Shadow use that option. Both sides stopped using it in the War of Power, right? There's precedent. Did the DO get tired of it all? Seems out of character. Surely he'd have gotten tired of it all before now, given an eternity of this struggle.

What I'm alluding to there is my nascent philosophical theory that if something is eternal, expecting it to change its mind RIGHT NOW is rather silly.
Post by Chucky @ Work
The cracks-in-the-universe were cool though.
Yup and gave a way to instill meaning in "the flame of Tar Valon".
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
No one can check the generals for compulsion and remove it,
regularly? Seems they should have expected that move by the shadow.
True, but I don't think it was Compulsion as such. Just interference
with them in the dream, power o' suggestion and all that.
Oh I thought that was confirmed.... Well, certainly one of the Supergirls said they were Compulsed.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Faile didn't die.
After so much fucking around, I would have been pissed if she'd died.
Not because I liked her (although I have never hated her as much as a
lot of readers seemed to), but because Perrin wasted so much of my
time looking after her, moping about her, arguing with her, worrying
about her ... to lose her at the end would just be a kick in the balls
I could live without.
Nah. I can take that hit. Well, she'll die someday. Small favors.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
No 4-way with Rand! That's right, I think pregnant women are
hot. I don't discriminate against any kind of pretty women ;D
You're a fair and just man.
I do try. Sometimes it's a hard slog.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Page 27: Very awesome to see where Isam/Luc grew up and what happened
to the Aiel men channelers. Loved this and all related bits. I did find it a little
silly that Isam would have assumed male Aiel channelers immediately
stopped coming to the Blight just because the taint was cleansed...
what with all the doubt out there that surely he'd noticed. But anyway.
Yeah, that was cool. I liked the way they left that stuff (like Shara)
largely untouched but then brought it in at the end.
I was a bit puzzled by how it really worked in practice. So, male
channelers from the Aiel went there, and some were turned by force and
others went nuts and others, maybe, turned voluntarily? There were a
*lot* of them. And a lot of them couldn't channel. So, there were
non-channelers there too, it seems like *all* the Aiel who ever went
to the Blight ended up there. Presumably men and women, so they could
breed up a community there. Well, okay.
Well I think the breeding would account for the non-channelers...it was just a whole community up there. Started by Male Aiel who were turned, and then a breeding program of some sort was initiated, and Aiel training (of a sort at least) was maintained. Something like that, works for me. Even two channelers don't necessarily have channeler kids, I thought that was covered. Or was that just fan fic?
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Page 32: Bayle says "what want you to do now?" Yeah, uhh, I knew
Illianers added "do" all the time, but I didn't think they rearranged
their sentences in Yoda-like (or is it just Irish Brogue-like?) fashion....
Heh, yeah. A bit messy.
And a perfect opportunity to say "do do" totally missed. Not in that sentence, but sometime when he was speaking.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Page 93: Yeah, the gholam...s? What about the other ones? You
would imagine, would you not, that the Great Lord would do it's
damndest to release all the others and set them to task, in the
Last Battle.... But we only had to deal with the one.
I was puzzled by this too. I thought there was only one. Okay, maybe
there were others sealed up in stasis pods, but nobody could get to
them (not even the Dark One, I can only assume). Otherwise, it would
have been done.
Right, that's what I'm saying. I'm wondering if he spent any effort trying. Seems it would have been a good idea.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Page 103: Pevara bonds Androl, the reverse, after a fashion, of what
he did to her. Then down that page a bit, he bonds her back (what
did he do before?), and she is surprised by it, and he says she did
it first. Wait.... Ise confused....
I don't remember being confused by this. He channels (this is after
they have a rapey linking experiment and ignore each other's
safe-words, right?), she panics and bonds him (using the same theory
as the link they had already done - I assume because being a Red, she
never really learned the bonding weave properly), then he bonds her
because she didn't stop him from channeling.
I know I guess I just thought he had already bonded her, since that's how the captive situation was usually worked.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
I'm trying to picture the cavalry charges from the LOTR movies,
they were almost touching....
Oh right, well, as long as we have academic consistency on this!
*grin*
I did try to bring some empirical fantasy evidence in to play, yes....
Post by Chucky @ Work
Actually speaking of Lord of the Rings, this reminded me of the scene
in the third movie where (after the troll fight in the first movie)
Aragorn is exchanging sword-and-shield blows with a troll in full
armour. Nice superpowers-escalation there, Elessar.
Yes, as you can imagine, that always bothered me. It was weapon to weapon, and at least he could have seemed to be absorbing more shock than he was.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Page 376: Direct detailing of a Trolloc passing through a gateway. So
this is as good a time as any to ask why in the hell luring and then opening
gateways wasn't a widely used tactic against the shadowspawn?
Gateways up into the air perhaps, so that the Sharans would fall to
their death? Such a waste....
Yeah, I guess they had to walk a line of gateways being super-useful,
but also quite tiring and only available to powerful channelers (and
Androl) or circles. Only the really powerful ones could make
deathgates, for example.
But it would be totally cool! Dead enemies raining down from the sky!
Post by Chucky @ Work
Maybe a volley of fireballs (or ten) were easier and more damaging
than a gateway trick.
Probably. But not as cool. Like my bowtie.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Plus, the author had to maintain the balance of not overusing them, so
when they did get used in fun ways, it was actually interesting and
not just another gateway ruse.
Yes we wouldn't want him doing anything over-powered with channelers, that would make the last battle silly.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Or did they shift to the real world? Well, not possible because
Perrin doesn't know how, yet. And they couldn't have BEEN
in the real world because you don't shift into the world of
dreams, without channeling, immediately like Slayer did, and
again Perrin didn't know how.
Right. I think most of this stuff happened in Shayol Ghul, so it gets
a pass because anything can happen there.
Yeah, fair enough.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Basically I can't think of a combination of events that makes
sense with what was written on this page.
I think it could have been done better. There did seem to be a lot of
rule-breaking bleed-over that should not have happened. It's not like
the fighting people were asleep or anything!
'cept for that, right.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Page 481: I feel that Bashere's outburst here (against Tam) was
totally out of character. Almost as if the person writing this didn't
really know how Bashere typically behaved....
Wasn't Bashere also being mind-fucked?
Yeah I know, but if you view it as subtle compulsion (after all Aginor wasn't altered in personality, just in some decisions he made) then why the 'tude?
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Page 558: I really liked the character development of Galad here.
Turned him into a real person instead of a caricature.
Agreed.
And messing up his pretty face helped.
Didn't all us guys just enjoy that immensely?
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Page 590: I thought Moghedien said or implied that a weave to
detect male channeling wasn't a real thing. She pretended to
teach it to Nynaeve et al.... Did they learn it somehow?
When? Why was that not a bigger deal?
Yeah, I thought it was something Moghedien *thought* was not real, in
another example of Age-of-Legends-centric arrogance ... but Cadsuane
had a trinket that showed male channeling (maybe Moghedien was
half-lying, and there were ter'angreal but no actual *weaves*?), I
thought. Yeah, could have been made a bigger deal. After all the
whining about how men could sense a woman channeling automatically.
Yeah, I mean there's having a ter'angreal, and there's KNOWING how to do it with the OP. Two different things. Maybe Aviendha, since she can tell what a ter'angreal does...somehow...? But I'm just saying he needed to flesh that out.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
And, on a side note...Mat can Travel with the amulet on? I would think
that counts as being affected directly by channeling....
Nah, there was precedent for this, the way he lured the gholam through
to the Skimming plane. Gateways don't dissolve around him.
I guess this also means that gholam, unlike Trollocs, could Travel
anyway.
Indeed, I had forgotten. But just because there's precedent doesn't mean the precedent makes any sense....

I guess the gateway itself could be made of warped spacetime instead of the OP...it's not a big deal I was just thinking about it is all.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Page 694: I like these insights into Demandred. At the same time I kept
wondering how in the HELL he could not know that the Dragon was
confronting the DO in the cave.... Everyone else seemed to fucking
know it, Thom certainly had to fight off several BA....
Yeah. And Demandred has *been there*, so he'd know it was a cave.
Uhh, ok. That too, I guess. The cave aspect wasn't central to my thesis.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Page 711: I really liked the explanation of the way the Seanchan
work, on this page. Again made them less caricatures and more
real for me.
Agreed, although I'm not sure what you're referring to.
The explanation of why Deathwatch Guards seek death when they fail in their duties.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Page 787: Is Mellar that desperate? Not only is she very pregnant,
but soon she's about to be very bloodied up by having babies
cut out of her.... Who wants a piece of that pussay?
Yeah, but he's like a psycho-horny sleazebag version of you.
I think you just needed the "psycho" part, not the horny part. I got that covered.
Post by Chucky @ Work
And his
driving obsession has been Elayne all along. I thought it added to his
nasty-creep vibe very nicely.
Oh it did, it did. I view it kind of like I do the "brave" Americans who want all sorts of guns to defend themselves, though: they have NO idea what it will really mean if they do go that far and kill someone. Same with him, he didn't think it all out....
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Page 811: I'm stupid. Who was the woman cast from her throne and
made a puppet? Elayne's mommy? What was her--Morgase?
Can't remember who was talking about it. I think it was referring to
Morgase, yes.
Near the end, when Rand is securing his victory over the DO, there's some expository writing like the "wind" stuff at the start of the books.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
She has so little mention in this book, why would he mention her
at that critical moment? Or is he talking about someone else? Who?
Well, Morgase's downfall was a pretty big deal. One of the first
nicely effective things a Forsaken did, actually, in the early books.
Made me momentarily have hope for them.
Good point. I guess it's just a little lost and forgotten for me by that point.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Page 847: Logain has changed so much, I'm not sure I buy it,
but I'm glad he changed back and did the right thing
He changed? We never really got much of a stable look at him, you
know. He was a captured False Dragon, then a gentled male channeler,
then a healed runaway Asha'man, then a victim of attempted Turning ...
that's all over the map.
All right, good point. I developed a very positive image of him, somehow.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Page 856: Finally! Finally we'll see Perrin stop being a pussy, stop
holding back!
Yeah, but I had a bit of a problem with this, myself. First of all, it
was too long coming. Okay, dramatic effect, granted ... but still,
ugh.
And secondly, he'd had epiphanies like this before. Liek when he
crippled that Aiel to get information about Faile. Seems to me he's
been struggling "hammer vs. axe" and letting his inner wolf go, and
finding his balance, repeatedly through this series. This last time
just didn't have the impact it could have, as a result.
Well, very true. Still, kudos for Sanders having the brilliant idea of resolving that once and for all.

Oh, will you look at that, I made a typo....

*leaves it in*
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Page 864: Shaisam? How the hell did he come up with that name? I hate it.
*snicker*
Some melding of Shai'tan and Isam?
Only thing I can figure.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Page 876: Again I'm pretty sure this is wrong. Blood doesn't actually
help crops to grow....
Um, well, okay. I guess.
Blood-watering-a-field-of-battle-and-making-future-farming-better misconception. It's a recurring theme in some fantasy that ticks off some of us.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Page 880: "in her haste, picked at the wrong thread." What? From
her thoughts just above, she WANTED it to explode. So why did
it get written as a mistake made in haste?
Maybe she was trying to finesse it a bit more?
Not from the description. This one, you should re-read, to let me know what you think.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Page 889: Great solution for Lanfear, glad Perrin was able to do what
Rand never would have been able to do.
Yes. Holy crap, I laughed aloud when this happened.
Kind of like the "Puny God" moment in the Avengers, eh?
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
OK I think that's all. Discuss.
There you go. Thanks for the review, this was sweet. I guess we could
be trying to divide stuff up into threads, but seriously, screw that.
We're totally good at dealing with epic texts.
Thanks, you're welcome, and we are, agreed.

-Aaron
Chucky @ Work
2013-04-04 09:04:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
*spoiler alert*
...
...
...
...
Heh, I do believe I missed that one. I have a vague recollection but I
missed its significance ... except insofar as any time Perrin says
anything about wolves, it's all Fraught with Meaning.
Near the end Nyn tells him to "sit!", and he says dogs obey but wolves do not. Booyah bitch!
Ohhh yes. Haha, that was neat.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Hooray! His fight with Slayer was too drawn-out, but that was the
style of their enmity. And the way Perrin was owning channelers and
making them go "ZOMGWTF" was cool. It's just a weave.
Totally. Although the Forsaken he wowed had experience with
Slayer so they should have been aware of this.
Point. I guess the Forsaken never really paid much attention to
Slayer, and he probably hid some of his potential from them out of the
knowledge that they'd kill him if he proved too dangerous.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Tuon finally making some goddamn sense.
Enhh ... *flip-flops hand* She was still a bit of an irritating
arrogant dumbarse.
Well, to be sure. But seeing her thoughts about why Seanchan do
this, or that, helped me to go "yeah I don't agree but I can see
how someone might think that way."
True. And really, I guess it is unrealistic of me to expect her to
just up and overturn a whole lifetime of learned culture and
prejudice. She did admit that Trollocs were real once she'd seen one.
So that helps.

And gives some hope that she'd react well to seeing Artur Hawkwing.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
A use for Min's talent that brings her acclaim!
Yes, that was fairly unexpected and cool. And to be fair, would not
have happened (most likely) if Tuon had stopped being an irritating
arrogant dumbarse.
Hadn't stopped? Sorry I'm missing your point there unless that was a grammar-po.
Had stopped. I mean, if she'd softened up and started listening to
people and getting along with them and respecting their talents and
beliefs, instead of just steamrollering on over the top of their
objections, she probably would have *offered* Min the role, then let
her go when she turned it down. Instead of just going, "you're this
person now, put on the dumb dress".
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Yeah, seems they weren't wiped out quite so dramatically as they
should have been, given how dangerous balefire was - the way it undid
bolstering / troop-moving actions performed by channelers, leaving
other parts of the army ready to be destroyed ... I think that was
just *so* devastating, the author was sort of obliged to gloss over it
a bit.
The other option was to, you know, NOT have the Shadow use that option.
Not really an option though, since they were specifically ordered to
use it this time. Because they *wanted* to destroy the Pattern.
Post by Aaron
Both sides stopped using it in the War of Power, right? There's
precedent. Did the DO get tired of it all? Seems out of character.
Surely he'd have gotten tired of it all before now, given an
eternity of this struggle.
Not the Dark One, so much as Ishamael.

I was of the impression that things were different during the War of
Power / Shadow. They (the Forsaken and Dreadlords) didn't want to
destroy the Pattern and bring about the final victory, or it wasn't so
defined at that stage. Ishamael wasn't so mad. So they backed off from
the mutually-assured destruction. Even if it was something the Dark
One might have wanted.

In the Third Age, however, Ishamael was completely nutso and wanted
oblivion, so he'd given the order to use balefire and destroy the
Pattern (ooh, just like he did in the Steal, only he started way
earlier in the Steal), which may or may not have benefitted the Dark
One (probably would have) but Ishamael didn't care. And the others
still seemed to be operating under the delusion that they could
destroy the Pattern and the Dark One would remake it in His image and
they would all be okay, with little kingdoms of their own just the way
they wanted them.

Which, seeing the Patterns-in-potentia that happened during Rand's
duel with the Dark One, could feasibly have been an option. But it
still seemed crazy of them to believe they'd be given such a gift.
Destroying the universe is destroying the universe.
Post by Aaron
What I'm alluding to there is my nascent philosophical theory that if
something is eternal, expecting it to change its mind RIGHT NOW is
rather silly.
Well, quite.

There's also the fact that agreeing to ban the use of balefire in the
Age of Legends didn't work out for them - they lost. So why not try it
this time?
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
The cracks-in-the-universe were cool though.
Yup and gave a way to instill meaning in "the flame of Tar Valon".
*nod*
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
No one can check the generals for compulsion and remove it,
regularly? Seems they should have expected that move by the shadow.
True, but I don't think it was Compulsion as such. Just interference
with them in the dream, power o' suggestion and all that.
Oh I thought that was confirmed.... Well, certainly one of the Supergirls
said they were Compulsed.
Sure, they should still have been checking for it either way, no
argument here.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
I was a bit puzzled by how it really worked in practice. So, male
channelers from the Aiel went there, and some were turned by force and
others went nuts and others, maybe, turned voluntarily? There were a
*lot* of them. And a lot of them couldn't channel. So, there were
non-channelers there too, it seems like *all* the Aiel who ever went
to the Blight ended up there. Presumably men and women, so they could
breed up a community there. Well, okay.
Well I think the breeding would account for the non-channelers...it was
just a whole community up there. Started by Male Aiel who were turned,
and then a breeding program of some sort was initiated, and Aiel training
(of a sort at least) was maintained. Something like that, works for me.
Even two channelers don't necessarily have channeler kids, I thought
that was covered. Or was that just fan fic?
I don't think it was covered. We have future-glimpses of Rand and
Aviendha's kids who were born holding the One Power and are
super-channelers ... but I don't think that necessarily speaks to the
rule, because otherwise there would have been a subspecies of
super-channelers ages ago and the White Tower never would have bred
itself out of full numbers.

I think it's far more likely, as you say, that yeah, sometimes
channeler+channeler (especially Channeler of Destiny) can = channeler,
but just as likely it would result in a normal.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
I don't remember being confused by this. He channels (this is after
they have a rapey linking experiment and ignore each other's
safe-words, right?), she panics and bonds him (using the same theory
as the link they had already done - I assume because being a Red, she
never really learned the bonding weave properly), then he bonds her
because she didn't stop him from channeling.
I know I guess I just thought he had already bonded her, since that's
how the captive situation was usually worked.
Oh you mean in a previous chapter / book? Nah, I don't think so.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Maybe a volley of fireballs (or ten) were easier and more damaging
than a gateway trick.
Probably. But not as cool. Like my bowtie.
Actually you're still wearing your YUO CANT KNOW beanie from the other
thread, so that's not a bowtie so much as a propeller.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Plus, the author had to maintain the balance of not overusing them, so
when they did get used in fun ways, it was actually interesting and
not just another gateway ruse.
Yes we wouldn't want him doing anything over-powered with
channelers, that would make the last battle silly.
Heh. Okay, fair.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Page 481: I feel that Bashere's outburst here (against Tam) was
totally out of character. Almost as if the person writing this didn't
really know how Bashere typically behaved....
Wasn't Bashere also being mind-fucked?
Yeah I know, but if you view it as subtle compulsion (after all
Aginor wasn't altered in personality, just in some decisions he
made) then why the 'tude?
Because it *was* subtle. As the generals said, they were frustrated by
their own actions, they thought they were doing right but knew they
were doing wrong, it was frazzling them excessively. I thought the
temper was done well. And Bashere *is* Saldaean at his core, for all
his coolness.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
And messing up his pretty face helped.
Didn't all us guys just enjoy that immensely?
Shamefully.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Yeah, I thought it was something Moghedien *thought* was not real, in
another example of Age-of-Legends-centric arrogance ... but Cadsuane
had a trinket that showed male channeling (maybe Moghedien was
half-lying, and there were ter'angreal but no actual *weaves*?), I
thought. Yeah, could have been made a bigger deal. After all the
whining about how men could sense a woman channeling automatically.
Yeah, I mean there's having a ter'angreal, and there's KNOWING
how to do it with the OP. Two different things. Maybe Aviendha,
since she can tell what a ter'angreal does...somehow...? But I'm
just saying he needed to flesh that out.
Agreed. it did tend to just get dropped in there. Especially since
there were a lot of ways the inability to sense male channeling could
have been used for good dramatic effect.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
And, on a side note...Mat can Travel with the amulet on? I would think
that counts as being affected directly by channeling....
Nah, there was precedent for this, the way he lured the gholam through
to the Skimming plane. Gateways don't dissolve around him.
I guess this also means that gholam, unlike Trollocs, could Travel
anyway.
Indeed, I had forgotten. But just because there's precedent doesn't
mean the precedent makes any sense....
Well, true. But then, like throwing a stone or killing Mat with
lightning, the gateway weave wouldn't actually touch him, so it makes
sense that it wouldn't be dissolved by the medallion.
Post by Aaron
I guess the gateway itself could be made of warped spacetime
instead of the OP...it's not a big deal I was just thinking about it
is all.
Sure. I always thought of the edges of the gateway as the weave. The
bit in the middle is just air.

Now, from the other side, there's a shimmering surface of something,
*that* might be a weave and Mat's medallion might dissolve it. But we
never see that happening.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Page 711: I really liked the explanation of the way the Seanchan
work, on this page. Again made them less caricatures and more
real for me.
Agreed, although I'm not sure what you're referring to.
The explanation of why Deathwatch Guards seek death when they
fail in their duties.
Oh, yeah. That was cool. Teaming Mat up with the deathwish-Deathwatch
was funny.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Page 787: Is Mellar that desperate? Not only is she very pregnant,
but soon she's about to be very bloodied up by having babies
cut out of her.... Who wants a piece of that pussay?
Yeah, but he's like a psycho-horny sleazebag version of you.
I think you just needed the "psycho" part, not the horny part. I got that covered.
Sure, sure. No offence. I was attempting to make a distinction for
"psycho-horny" as opposed to "psycho" or "horny".
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
And his
driving obsession has been Elayne all along. I thought it added to his
nasty-creep vibe very nicely.
Oh it did, it did. I view it kind of like I do the "brave" Americans who
want all sorts of guns to defend themselves, though: they have NO
idea what it will really mean if they do go that far and kill someone.
Same with him, he didn't think it all out....
Good point, excellently illustrated.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
She has so little mention in this book, why would he mention her
at that critical moment? Or is he talking about someone else? Who?
Well, Morgase's downfall was a pretty big deal. One of the first
nicely effective things a Forsaken did, actually, in the early books.
Made me momentarily have hope for them.
Good point. I guess it's just a little lost and forgotten for me by that point.
Fair. There's hundreds of pages of the Forsaken being useless to be
supported, and the overthrow of Caemlyn is not a load-bearing act of
evil.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Page 847: Logain has changed so much, I'm not sure I buy it,
but I'm glad he changed back and did the right thing
He changed? We never really got much of a stable look at him, you
know. He was a captured False Dragon, then a gentled male channeler,
then a healed runaway Asha'man, then a victim of attempted Turning ...
that's all over the map.
All right, good point. I developed a very positive image of him, somehow.
He has always been beloved of the monkeyhouse, ever since it was
established that he totally looks like Sean Bean.

And yet, he lived!
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
And secondly, he'd had epiphanies like this before. Liek when he
crippled that Aiel to get information about Faile. Seems to me he's
been struggling "hammer vs. axe" and letting his inner wolf go, and
finding his balance, repeatedly through this series. This last time
just didn't have the impact it could have, as a result.
Well, very true. Still, kudos for Sanders having the brilliant idea of
resolving that once and for all.
Oh, will you look at that, I made a typo....
*leaves it in*
Hee. Oh, that Sanders. A true visionary.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Page 876: Again I'm pretty sure this is wrong. Blood doesn't actually
help crops to grow....
Um, well, okay. I guess.
Blood-watering-a-field-of-battle-and-making-future-farming-better
misconception. It's a recurring theme in some fantasy that ticks
off some of us.
*nod*

But there is a certain amount of nutrient and organic goodness in a
mess of bodies, right? I remember my mum used to have a fertiliser for
her garden, called "blood and bone".

I rest my case.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Page 880: "in her haste, picked at the wrong thread." What? From
her thoughts just above, she WANTED it to explode. So why did
it get written as a mistake made in haste?
Maybe she was trying to finesse it a bit more?
Not from the description. This one, you should re-read, to let me know what you think.
Will do. Best I can think is, she wanted a bigger explosion but since
the effects were last (and fairly soundly) described as random, there
couldn't really be a "wrong" one.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Page 889: Great solution for Lanfear, glad Perrin was able to do what
Rand never would have been able to do.
Yes. Holy crap, I laughed aloud when this happened.
Kind of like the "Puny God" moment in the Avengers, eh?
Yes!




***@w
--
13 of 12, the CMM Collective
CHOW:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/chow-a-dance-with-dragons/
Give a hoot, read my book:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2012/07/18/arsebook-my-rear-in-status-2011/
Aaron
2013-04-04 13:25:02 UTC
Permalink
Wow google groups is taking out all the spaces and carriage returns between lines, makes this REALLY annoying to do. I hope you appreciate. Your lines start with periods now: "." Because you seem to be on yours, in case you're wondering about my choice ;D

Other thread reference, obviously....
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
*spoiler alert*
...
...
...
...
Hooray! His fight with Slayer was too drawn-out, but that was the
style of their enmity. And the way Perrin was owning channelers and
making them go "ZOMGWTF" was cool. It's just a weave.
Totally. Although the Forsaken he wowed had experience with
Slayer so they should have been aware of this.
.Point. I guess the Forsaken never really paid much attention to
.Slayer, and he probably hid some of his potential from them out of the
.knowledge that they'd kill him if he proved too dangerous.

Well good point, I think he had thoughts along this line on-screen IIRC.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Tuon finally making some goddamn sense.
Enhh ... *flip-flops hand* She was still a bit of an irritating
arrogant dumbarse.
Well, to be sure. But seeing her thoughts about why Seanchan do
this, or that, helped me to go "yeah I don't agree but I can see
how someone might think that way."
.True. And really, I guess it is unrealistic of me to expect her to
.just up and overturn a whole lifetime of learned culture and
.prejudice. She did admit that Trollocs were real once she'd seen one.
.So that helps.

She's as courteous as a Taimandretard, isn't she?

.And gives some hope that she'd react well to seeing Artur Hawkwing.

Yeah that would be awesome to see. She'd HAVE to agree to what he told her, right?
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
A use for Min's talent that brings her acclaim!
Yes, that was fairly unexpected and cool. And to be fair, would not
have happened (most likely) if Tuon had stopped being an irritating
arrogant dumbarse.
Hadn't stopped? Sorry I'm missing your point there unless that was a grammar-po.
.Had stopped. I mean, if she'd softened up and started listening to
.people and getting along with them and respecting their talents and
.beliefs, instead of just steamrollering on over the top of their
.objections, she probably would have *offered* Min the role, then let
.her go when she turned it down. Instead of just going, "you're this
.person now, put on the dumb dress".

Oh I get you now. I must have downplayed Min's "I'm outta here" initial reaction.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Yeah, seems they weren't wiped out quite so dramatically as they
should have been, given how dangerous balefire was - the way it undid
bolstering / troop-moving actions performed by channelers, leaving
other parts of the army ready to be destroyed ... I think that was
just *so* devastating, the author was sort of obliged to gloss over it
a bit.
The other option was to, you know, NOT have the Shadow use that option.
Not really an option though, since they were specifically ordered to
use it this time. Because they *wanted* to destroy the Pattern.

Yes but WHY this time?
Post by Aaron
Both sides stopped using it in the War of Power, right? There's
precedent. Did the DO get tired of it all? Seems out of character.
Surely he'd have gotten tired of it all before now, given an
eternity of this struggle.
.Not the Dark One, so much as Ishamael.

Moridin's not calling the shots now. The DO is, directly.

.I was of the impression that things were different during the War of
.Power / Shadow. They (the Forsaken and Dreadlords) didn't want to
.destroy the Pattern and bring about the final victory, or it wasn't so
.defined at that stage. Ishamael wasn't so mad. So they backed off from
.the mutually-assured destruction. Even if it was something the Dark
.One might have wanted.

I don't think it is what he wants, though. He wants to be FREE to rule as he sees fit. Starting over works too, but is not necessary IMO.

.In the Third Age, however, Ishamael was completely nutso and wanted
.oblivion, so he'd given the order to use balefire and destroy the
.Pattern (ooh, just like he did in the Steal, only he started way
.earlier in the Steal), which may or may not have benefitted the Dark
.One (probably would have) but Ishamael didn't care. And the others
.still seemed to be operating under the delusion that they could
.destroy the Pattern and the Dark One would remake it in His image and
.they would all be okay, with little kingdoms of their own just the way
.they wanted them.

There wasn't very much balefire use even from the Forsaken or Black Ajah until this last book, man. At least in my recollection. And in this last book, Moridin's will means fuck-all, the DO's in charge now. Even Shadar Haran is discarded.

.Which, seeing the Patterns-in-potentia that happened during Rand's
.duel with the Dark One, could feasibly have been an option. But it
.still seemed crazy of them to believe they'd be given such a gift.
.Destroying the universe is destroying the universe.

Indeed.
Post by Aaron
What I'm alluding to there is my nascent philosophical theory that if
something is eternal, expecting it to change its mind RIGHT NOW is
rather silly.
.Well, quite.

.There's also the fact that agreeing to ban the use of balefire in the
.Age of Legends didn't work out for them - they lost. So why not try it
.this time?

But it's a wheel, right? So presumably these wars have been cropping up for a long time now? A REALLY long time?

I guess in this age, every time, balefire is used for this purpose? I'm just wondering how THAT sort of decision becomes cyclical, with an eternal like the DO changing his mind back and forth on it. You see?
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
The cracks-in-the-universe were cool though.
Yup and gave a way to instill meaning in "the flame of Tar Valon".
.*nod*


Egwene Al'Vere, the girl with the crack in her Pattern! Finally got her sorted out, though.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
I was a bit puzzled by how it really worked in practice. So, male
channelers from the Aiel went there, and some were turned by force and
others went nuts and others, maybe, turned voluntarily? There were a
*lot* of them. And a lot of them couldn't channel. So, there were
non-channelers there too, it seems like *all* the Aiel who ever went
to the Blight ended up there. Presumably men and women, so they could
breed up a community there. Well, okay.
Well I think the breeding would account for the non-channelers...it was
just a whole community up there. Started by Male Aiel who were turned,
and then a breeding program of some sort was initiated, and Aiel training
(of a sort at least) was maintained. Something like that, works for me.
Even two channelers don't necessarily have channeler kids, I thought
that was covered. Or was that just fan fic?
.I don't think it was covered. We have future-glimpses of Rand and
.Aviendha's kids who were born holding the One Power and are
.super-channelers ... but I don't think that necessarily speaks to the
.rule, because otherwise there would have been a subspecies of
.super-channelers ages ago and the White Tower never would have bred
.itself out of full numbers.

Was all discussion of the children of Aes Sedai fan fiction? I just totally cannot remember.

Agreed it doesn't necessarily speak to the rule and that's what I'm saying above.

.I think it's far more likely, as you say, that yeah, sometimes
.channeler+channeler (especially Channeler of Destiny) can = channeler,
.but just as likely it would result in a normal.

LOL. Agreed.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Maybe a volley of fireballs (or ten) were easier and more damaging
than a gateway trick.
Probably. But not as cool. Like my bowtie.
.Actually you're still wearing your YUO CANT KNOW beanie from the other
.thread, so that's not a bowtie so much as a propeller.

You can't see me so YUO CANT KNOW!
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Page 481: I feel that Bashere's outburst here (against Tam) was
totally out of character. Almost as if the person writing this didn't
really know how Bashere typically behaved....
Wasn't Bashere also being mind-fucked?
Yeah I know, but if you view it as subtle compulsion (after all
Aginor wasn't altered in personality, just in some decisions he
made) then why the 'tude?
.Because it *was* subtle. As the generals said, they were frustrated by
.their own actions, they thought they were doing right but knew they
.were doing wrong, it was frazzling them excessively. I thought the
.temper was done well. And Bashere *is* Saldaean at his core, for all
.his coolness.

All right all right I give over. Fair enough. I could have done without it.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
And, on a side note...Mat can Travel with the amulet on? I would think
that counts as being affected directly by channeling....
Nah, there was precedent for this, the way he lured the gholam through
to the Skimming plane. Gateways don't dissolve around him.
I guess this also means that gholam, unlike Trollocs, could Travel
anyway.
Indeed, I had forgotten. But just because there's precedent doesn't
mean the precedent makes any sense....
.Well, true. But then, like throwing a stone or killing Mat with
.lightning, the gateway weave wouldn't actually touch him, so it makes
.sense that it wouldn't be dissolved by the medallion.

Right, assuming the weave is only the border. Which I think we must.
Post by Aaron
I guess the gateway itself could be made of warped spacetime
instead of the OP...it's not a big deal I was just thinking about it
is all.
.Sure. I always thought of the edges of the gateway as the weave. The
.bit in the middle is just air.

Yeah, agreed though I don't like it. It has to be that way. Kinda like something else we're discussing. What was it...can't recall. Must not be a big deal.

.Now, from the other side, there's a shimmering surface of something,
.*that* might be a weave and Mat's medallion might dissolve it. But we
.never see that happening.

All I'm saying. Doesn't quite work. But whatevs.

.Oh, yeah. That was cool. Teaming Mat up with the deathwish-Deathwatch
.was funny.

Yes, good comic relief, oddly enough.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Page 787: Is Mellar that desperate? Not only is she very pregnant,
but soon she's about to be very bloodied up by having babies
cut out of her.... Who wants a piece of that pussay?
Yeah, but he's like a psycho-horny sleazebag version of you.
I think you just needed the "psycho" part, not the horny part. I got that covered.
.Sure, sure. No offence. I was attempting to make a distinction for
."psycho-horny" as opposed to "psycho" or "horny".

Well all right then. As long as you admit I'm horny. Randy baby. Do I?
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
And his
driving obsession has been Elayne all along. I thought it added to his
nasty-creep vibe very nicely.
Oh it did, it did. I view it kind of like I do the "brave" Americans who
want all sorts of guns to defend themselves, though: they have NO
idea what it will really mean if they do go that far and kill someone.
Same with him, he didn't think it all out....
.Good point, excellently illustrated.

Thank you sah! Too bad only 3 people will read that.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Page 847: Logain has changed so much, I'm not sure I buy it,
but I'm glad he changed back and did the right thing
He changed? We never really got much of a stable look at him, you
know. He was a captured False Dragon, then a gentled male channeler,
then a healed runaway Asha'man, then a victim of attempted Turning ...
that's all over the map.
All right, good point. I developed a very positive image of him, somehow.
.He has always been beloved of the monkeyhouse, ever since it was
.established that he totally looks like Sean Bean.

.And yet, he lived!

I'm sure a cow stampede killed Logain just after the end of the book.

.Hee. Oh, that Sanders. A true visionary.

I like to think so.

Oh you knew that, though.

.But there is a certain amount of nutrient and organic goodness in a
.mess of bodies, right? I remember my mum used to have a fertiliser for
.her garden, called "blood and bone".

.I rest my case.

Indeed there are some parts of a decomposing body that ARE good for fertilizing. Just not the blood. Too much heavy metal, I think, but I'm not sure. Or is it the saline content? One or both of those, at any rate.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Page 880: "in her haste, picked at the wrong thread." What? From
her thoughts just above, she WANTED it to explode. So why did
it get written as a mistake made in haste?
Maybe she was trying to finesse it a bit more?
Not from the description. This one, you should re-read, to let me know what you think.
.Will do. Best I can think is, she wanted a bigger explosion but since
.the effects were last (and fairly soundly) described as random, there
.couldn't really be a "wrong" one.

You are making a valiant effort without rereading it. Kudos.

When you get the book back in front of you, let me know what you think.

-Aaron
Chucky @ Work
2013-04-04 13:56:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron
Wow google groups is taking out all the spaces and carriage returns
between lines, makes this REALLY annoying to do.
Weird, your own posts are coming through with massive line lengths
which I am having to break up and add the ">"s to, and all the stuff
you're quoting is double-spaced, which I have been getting rid of. I
hope we're not worknig at cross-purposes in order to make each other's
shit readable.
Post by Aaron
"."
Why don't you just mark them with ">>" to show they're one reply back?
Post by Aaron
Because you seem to be on yours, in case you're
wondering about my choice ;D
I thought it was because you're a giant pussy.
Post by Aaron
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
*spoiler alert*
...
...
...
...
.And gives some hope that she'd react well to seeing Artur Hawkwing.
Yeah that would be awesome to see. She'd HAVE to agree to
what he told her, right?
If there was any logic or sense in her at all, you'd think so.
Post by Aaron
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
A use for Min's talent that brings her acclaim!
Yes, that was fairly unexpected and cool. And to be fair, would not
have happened (most likely) if Tuon had stopped being an irritating
arrogant dumbarse.
Hadn't stopped? Sorry I'm missing your point there unless that was a grammar-po.
.Had stopped. I mean, if she'd softened up and started listening to
.people and getting along with them and respecting their talents and
.beliefs, instead of just steamrollering on over the top of their
.objections, she probably would have *offered* Min the role, then let
.her go when she turned it down. Instead of just going, "you're this
.person now, put on the dumb dress".
Oh I get you now. I must have downplayed Min's "I'm outta here"
initial reaction.
Yeah, as it was, it was just kinda weird, because it was Mat (if I
recall) who said "be cool" to Min, and *Min listened to him*. An act
completely without precedent, ever in the entire series.
Post by Aaron
Post by Aaron
Both sides stopped using it in the War of Power, right? There's
precedent. Did the DO get tired of it all? Seems out of character.
Surely he'd have gotten tired of it all before now, given an
eternity of this struggle.
.Not the Dark One, so much as Ishamael.
Moridin's not calling the shots now. The DO is, directly.
Well, quite. Which is also a bit different again, to the way it was
during the War of Power.

Also, I don't know for sure just how *directly* the Dark One was in
charge, even at the very end, and how much was still being passed on
through Moridin. Who had an oblivion-wish.
Post by Aaron
.I was of the impression that things were different during the War of
.Power / Shadow. They (the Forsaken and Dreadlords) didn't want to
.destroy the Pattern and bring about the final victory, or it wasn't so
.defined at that stage. Ishamael wasn't so mad. So they backed off from
.the mutually-assured destruction. Even if it was something the Dark
.One might have wanted.
I don't think it is what he wants, though. He wants to be FREE to
rule as he sees fit. Starting over works too, but is not necessary
IMO.
So it was just a myth that the Dark One wanted to destroy the Pattern,
as was talked about so much throughout the series? What did we learn,
and when, to make us doubt this?
Post by Aaron
.In the Third Age, however, Ishamael was completely nutso and wanted
.oblivion, so he'd given the order to use balefire and destroy the
.Pattern (ooh, just like he did in the Steal, only he started way
.earlier in the Steal), which may or may not have benefitted the Dark
.One (probably would have) but Ishamael didn't care. And the others
.still seemed to be operating under the delusion that they could
.destroy the Pattern and the Dark One would remake it in His image and
.they would all be okay, with little kingdoms of their own just the way
.they wanted them.
There wasn't very much balefire use even from the Forsaken or
Black Ajah until this last book, man.
Um, yes, I know. They should have started earlier and I am not sure
why they didn't.
Post by Aaron
At least in my recollection. And in this last book, Moridin's
will means fuck-all, the DO's in charge now. Even Shadar
Haran is discarded.
So why do you think they suddenly started using balefire in this way?
Post by Aaron
.There's also the fact that agreeing to ban the use of balefire in the
.Age of Legends didn't work out for them - they lost. So why not try it
.this time?
But it's a wheel, right? So presumably these wars have been
cropping up for a long time now? A REALLY long time?
Yes ... but they don't *remember* them. Not even Moridin *remembered*
them, he was just mad-philosopher enough to know they they happened,
and that he took part.
Post by Aaron
I guess in this age, every time, balefire is used for this purpose?
*shrug* Couldn't say.
Post by Aaron
I'm just wondering how THAT sort of decision becomes cyclical,
with an eternal like the DO changing his mind back and forth on it.
You see?
I see.
Post by Aaron
Post by Aaron
Well I think the breeding would account for the non-channelers...it was
just a whole community up there. Started by Male Aiel who were turned,
and then a breeding program of some sort was initiated, and Aiel training
(of a sort at least) was maintained. Something like that, works for me.
Even two channelers don't necessarily have channeler kids, I thought
that was covered. Or was that just fan fic?
.I don't think it was covered. We have future-glimpses of Rand and
.Aviendha's kids who were born holding the One Power and are
.super-channelers ... but I don't think that necessarily speaks to the
.rule, because otherwise there would have been a subspecies of
.super-channelers ages ago and the White Tower never would have bred
.itself out of full numbers.
Was all discussion of the children of Aes Sedai fan fiction? I just totally cannot remember.
There was discussion (canonical) about Aes Sedai breeding with male
channelers to attempt to bolster their numbers, but it never panned
out.

Oh, and it was suggested quite directly that the reason the White
Tower's numbers had waned so dramatically was *because* they were
getting rid of male channelers. Not necessarily because
channeler+channeler=channeler, but because channelers presumably have
some slightly higher chance of breeding channelers with non-channelers
... so the Aes Sedai weren't breeding so much, and the male channelers
weren't breeding much either, so the result was a degeneration.

I don't know, maybe that does point to a more
channeler+channeler=channeler model.
Post by Aaron
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Page 880: "in her haste, picked at the wrong thread." What? From
her thoughts just above, she WANTED it to explode. So why did
it get written as a mistake made in haste?
Maybe she was trying to finesse it a bit more?
Not from the description. This one, you should re-read, to let me know what you think.
.Will do. Best I can think is, she wanted a bigger explosion but since
.the effects were last (and fairly soundly) described as random, there
.couldn't really be a "wrong" one.
You are making a valiant effort without rereading it. Kudos.
When you get the book back in front of you, let me know what you think.
Keep reminding me, otherwise it's not likely to happen in my home
office.



***@w
--
13 of 12, the CMM Collective
CHOW:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/chow-a-dance-with-dragons/
Give a hoot, read my book:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2012/07/18/arsebook-my-rear-in-status-2011/
Aaron
2013-04-04 15:00:50 UTC
Permalink
Weird, your own posts are coming through with massive line lengths which I am > having to break up and add the ">"s to, and all the stuff you're quoting is
double-spaced, which I have been getting rid of. I hope we're not worknig at > cross-purposes in order to make each other's shit readable.
Oh I was just trying to make my own shit readable, to hell with yours. As always, you are a saint. I am ashamed.
Why don't you just mark them with ">>" to show they're one reply back?
Because I would have to carrot AND sometimes carriage-return the entire post to
do that. My way, I just added periods to your lines. Faster. But your efforts
guilted me so I decided to be less lazy this time. This'll be my last post from
here, at any rate.
Post by Aaron
Because you seem to be on yours, in case you're
wondering about my choice ;D
I thought it was because you're a giant pussy.
Well, that too.
Yeah, as it was, it was just kinda weird, because it was Mat (if I recall)
who said "be cool" to Min, and *Min listened to him*. An act completely
without precedent, ever in the entire series.
True dat, LOL.
Post by Aaron
Moridin's not calling the shots now. The DO is, directly.
Well, quite. Which is also a bit different again, to the way it was during
the War of Power.
All right, good point there. But that works against your argument I think, that Ishamael is seeking the balefire now when he didn't have the baws to then.
So it was just a myth that the Dark One wanted to destroy the Pattern, as was > talked about so much throughout the series? What did we learn, and when, to
make us doubt this?
Yes, I think it was a myth. Wasn't there something in the Moiraine or Cadsuane discussions in MoL about this?

The DO went through several iterations of remaking the world in his image before offering nothing (which I see as destruction of the pattern). I see that as proof it wasn't the only desired outcome for him/IT.

I am really sorry I can't give more examples of why I think this was canonically turned into a myth. I can strive to do so, but not right now, I have no resources. I hope that makes me a Dark One Remake World Theorist, and not "-tard".
Post by Aaron
There wasn't very much balefire use even from the Forsaken or
Black Ajah until this last book, man.
Um, yes, I know. They should have started earlier and I am not sure why they > didn't.
I am. #notwellthoughtout.

That's all man, you know me. Even that bugs me.
Yes ... but they don't *remember* them. Not even Moridin *remembered* them,
he was just mad-philosopher enough to know they they happened, and that he
took part.
I'm still operating under the theory that the DO gives the orders, for the most part. Certainly seemed to be the case near the end. Sometimes through Moridin, sure, but not always.
Post by Aaron
You see?
I see.
Well cool then.

*snip great breeding details from canon because Google is pissing me off*
I don't know, maybe that does point to a more channeler+channeler=channeler
model.
I think it points to a greater likelihood of something that's not very likely in any case. Like a critical strike chance in a game of 5%, and having a critical strike global improvement chance of 100%, only makes the final chance 10%. To use a totally obscure reference from Path of Exile.
Post by Aaron
Post by Aaron
Page 880: "in her haste, picked at the wrong thread."
You are making a valiant effort without rereading it. Kudos.
When you get the book back in front of you, let me know what you think.
Keep reminding me, otherwise it's not likely to happen in my home office.
Read this part!

Read this part!

Can I stop now?

Read this part!

-Aaron
Chucky & Janica
2013-04-04 17:47:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Why don't you just mark them with ">>" to show they're one reply back?
Because I would have to carrot AND sometimes carriage-return the entire post to
do that.
Yeah, I was doing that with your huge single-line responses.
Post by Aaron
My way, I just added periods to your lines. Faster. But your efforts
guilted me so I decided to be less lazy this time. This'll be my last post from
here, at any rate.
This seems to have wrapped fine.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Moridin's not calling the shots now. The DO is, directly.
Well, quite. Which is also a bit different again, to the way it was during
the War of Power.
All right, good point there. But that works against
your argument I think, that Ishamael is seeking the
balefire now when he didn't have the baws to then.
He wasn't insane and world-weary after 3000 years in prison back then.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
So it was just a myth that the Dark One wanted to destroy the Pattern, as was
talked about so much throughout the series? What did we learn, and when, to
make us doubt this?
Yes, I think it was a myth. Wasn't there something
in the Moiraine or Cadsuane discussions in MoL about this?
The DO went through several iterations of remaking
the world in his image before offering nothing (which
I see as destruction of the pattern). I see that as
proof it wasn't the only desired outcome for him/IT.
Quite so.

And Moridin does say that this is what *he* wants, not necessarily
what the Dark One wants.
Post by Aaron
I am really sorry I can't give more examples of
why I think this was canonically turned into a myth. I
can strive to do so, but not right now, I have no
resources. I hope that makes me a Dark One
Remake World Theorist, and not "-tard".
No, I was going to say it leaves us in our usual positions re: finding
evidence to back up our opinions, but you did go through the entire
last book with page references, so that's enough for me.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Yes ... but they don't *remember* them. Not even Moridin *remembered* them,
he was just mad-philosopher enough to know they they happened, and that he
took part.
I'm still operating under the theory that the DO
gives the orders, for the most part. Certainly
seemed to be the case near the end. Sometimes
through Moridin, sure, but not always.
I didn't see any evidence of that.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Post by Aaron
Page 880: "in her haste, picked at the wrong thread."
You are making a valiant effort without rereading it. Kudos.
When you get the book back in front of you, let me know what you think.
Keep reminding me, otherwise it's not likely to happen in my home office.
Read this part!
Read this part!
Can I stop now?
Read this part!
Okay, I'm on it!

First up, it says that this is a thing Aiel did, but that Aes Sedai
considered dangerous. And the results "could be unpredictable". Not
*were unpredictable*. Which to me suggests that we have only really
seen the reaction from Aes Sedai points of view and they have
overstated the unpredictability of it. Aviendha, however, has always
considered it only *sometimes* unpredictable.

Which means, to me, that she *could* have been trying to direct its
potency upwards, because as it says, she knew that Elayne had
(accidentally) made a huge explosion, and that would be fine with
Aviendha. And Aviendha made a mistake and as a result they both
survived.

All the pieces fit there, although I tend to doubt the Aiel knew about
how to control the unweaving in order to make explosions - indeed,
they didn't know how to weave gateways before midway through the
series anyway: it was presumably other weaves the Aiel knew how to
unpick. It seems most likely that (due to the way they learned to
channel) they knew how to unweave *safely* (actually that fits the
facts as we know them), and Aviendha was trying to unweave *unsafely*
for about the first time, and hoping for the best. Best I could say.

Second, and semi-alternatively, it says from an objective third-person
viewpoint that in her haste she picked at the wrong thread. Right at
the end of that section it says so - maybe the implication is not that
she was trying to do anything (although it does say she would be happy
with and was hoping for a massive explosion), but that nevertheless in
her haste she randomly picked a thread that *was*, objectively, the
wrong one for what she wanted to do. And the result was a little
explosion. And the narrator is filling this in after the fact, a
little clumsily.

Also fits.

*shrug*



C&J
Aaron
2013-04-05 13:26:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Aaron
My way, I just added periods to your lines. Faster. But your efforts
guilted me so I decided to be less lazy this time. This'll be my last post from
here, at any rate.
This seems to have wrapped fine.
Cuz I worked on that shit.
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Aaron
Well, quite. Which is also a bit different again, to the way it was during
the War of Power.
All right, good point there. But that works against
your argument I think, that Ishamael is seeking the
balefire now when he didn't have the baws to then.
He wasn't insane and world-weary after 3000 years in prison back then.
Well, true, I had forgotten about his whining about being sealed up too close to the surface or whatevs. Poor fellow.
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Aaron
The DO went through several iterations of remaking
the world in his image before offering nothing (which
I see as destruction of the pattern). I see that as
proof it wasn't the only desired outcome for him/IT.
Quite so.
And Moridin does say that this is what *he* wants, not necessarily
what the Dark One wants.
Indeed.
Post by Chucky & Janica
No, I was going to say it leaves us in our usual positions re: finding
evidence to back up our opinions, but you did go through the entire
last book with page references, so that's enough for me.
Yeah I really can't do this anymore with the other books.
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Aaron
I'm still operating under the theory that the DO
gives the orders, for the most part. Certainly
seemed to be the case near the end. Sometimes
through Moridin, sure, but not always.
I didn't see any evidence of that.
Uhm, okay. I've stopped caring on this one. Demandred sure as shit wasn't taking orders from Moridin. But he was doing the DO's bidding. The way I see it as being written, at least.
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Aaron
Read this part!
Read this part!
Can I stop now?
Read this part!
Okay, I'm on it!
First up, it says that this is a thing Aiel did, but that Aes Sedai
considered dangerous. And the results "could be unpredictable". Not
*were unpredictable*. Which to me suggests that we have only really
seen the reaction from Aes Sedai points of view and they have
overstated the unpredictability of it. Aviendha, however, has always
considered it only *sometimes* unpredictable.
Which means, to me, that she *could* have been trying to direct its
potency upwards, because as it says, she knew that Elayne had
(accidentally) made a huge explosion, and that would be fine with
Aviendha. And Aviendha made a mistake and as a result they both
survived.
But she made a mistake and there was an explosion.... I mean, according to how it is written.
Post by Chucky & Janica
All the pieces fit there, although I tend to doubt the Aiel knew about
how to control the unweaving in order to make explosions - indeed,
they didn't know how to weave gateways before midway through the
series anyway: it was presumably other weaves the Aiel knew how to
unpick. It seems most likely that (due to the way they learned to
channel) they knew how to unweave *safely* (actually that fits the
facts as we know them), and Aviendha was trying to unweave *unsafely*
for about the first time, and hoping for the best. Best I could say.
Right that's exactly what I'm saying. She was TRYING to create an explosion, and at the point of the text saying she picked the WRONG thread, she was still trying to do so AND did so, so I don't see how it was the wrong thread!
Post by Chucky & Janica
Second, and semi-alternatively, it says from an objective third-person
viewpoint that in her haste she picked at the wrong thread. Right at
the end of that section it says so - maybe the implication is not that
she was trying to do anything (although it does say she would be happy
with and was hoping for a massive explosion), but that nevertheless in
her haste she randomly picked a thread that *was*, objectively, the
wrong one for what she wanted to do. And the result was a little
explosion. And the narrator is filling this in after the fact, a
little clumsily.
Thanks for reading it and putting in this effort, I'm glad we can discuss it with details now. I know, I could have written the whole text in as an alternative, but since we both had the book I was happy to wait.
Post by Chucky & Janica
Also fits.
Clumsy and wrong because the end result was never a known thing. If you messed up and the weave unraveled on its own, you could get any result. Even a purple unicorn. The only "wrong" thread here is the "wrong" thread that gets you the result, which MIGHT be an explosion, from the weave unraveling itself.

But she was TRYING to make the weave unravel itself.

Now, just like detecting male channeling without a ter'angreal, if DIRECTING the results of a picked-apart weave is something they learned, then this is terrible writing and needed to be explained first or after. I'll take either one.
Chucky @ Work
2013-04-08 06:07:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Aaron
All right, good point there. But that works against
your argument I think, that Ishamael is seeking the
balefire now when he didn't have the baws to then.
He wasn't insane and world-weary after 3000 years in prison back then.
Well, true, I had forgotten about his whining about being
sealed up too close to the surface or whatevs. Poor fellow.
That was more Aginor and Balthamel, who were mad and wrinkled from
being close to the surface. Ishamael was only partially trapped, so
similar may have happened to him but it seemed like he was able to
disguise himself better, and he had access to the world and at least
Tel'Aran'Rhiod. And went more intricately mad.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky & Janica
All the pieces fit there, although I tend to doubt the Aiel knew about
how to control the unweaving in order to make explosions - indeed,
they didn't know how to weave gateways before midway through the
series anyway: it was presumably other weaves the Aiel knew how to
unpick. It seems most likely that (due to the way they learned to
channel) they knew how to unweave *safely* (actually that fits the
facts as we know them), and Aviendha was trying to unweave *unsafely*
for about the first time, and hoping for the best. Best I could say.
Right that's exactly what I'm saying. She was TRYING to create an
explosion, and at the point of the text saying she picked the
WRONG thread, she was still trying to do so AND did so, so I
don't see how it was the wrong thread!
Because it wasn't an explosion like Elayne did, a big enough explosion
to kill Aviendha and the Forsaken. It was only a weeny explosion.




***@w
--
13 of 12, the CMM Collective
CHOW:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/chow-a-dance-with-dragons/
Give a hoot, read my book:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2012/07/18/arsebook-my-rear-in-status-2011/
Aaron
2013-04-09 11:32:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Aaron
All right, good point there. But that works against
your argument I think, that Ishamael is seeking the
balefire now when he didn't have the baws to then.
He wasn't insane and world-weary after 3000 years in prison back then.
Well, true, I had forgotten about his whining about being
sealed up too close to the surface or whatevs. Poor fellow.
That was more Aginor and Balthamel, who were mad and wrinkled from
being close to the surface. Ishamael was only partially trapped, so
similar may have happened to him but it seemed like he was able to
disguise himself better, and he had access to the world and at least
Tel'Aran'Rhiod. And went more intricately mad.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky & Janica
All the pieces fit there, although I tend to doubt the Aiel knew about
how to control the unweaving in order to make explosions - indeed,
they didn't know how to weave gateways before midway through the
series anyway: it was presumably other weaves the Aiel knew how to
unpick. It seems most likely that (due to the way they learned to
channel) they knew how to unweave *safely* (actually that fits the
facts as we know them), and Aviendha was trying to unweave *unsafely*
for about the first time, and hoping for the best. Best I could say.
Right that's exactly what I'm saying. She was TRYING to create an
explosion, and at the point of the text saying she picked the
WRONG thread, she was still trying to do so AND did so, so I
don't see how it was the wrong thread!
Because it wasn't an explosion like Elayne did, a big enough explosion
to kill Aviendha and the Forsaken. It was only a weeny explosion.
...which either means she learned to control it and that should have been explained more (as we already agreed), or it was just a mistake in the writing.

So, shitty writing or erroneous writing. Which was my point, and why I put it in this thread.

-Aaron
Chucky @ Work
2013-04-09 12:57:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Right that's exactly what I'm saying. She was TRYING to create an
explosion, and at the point of the text saying she picked the
WRONG thread, she was still trying to do so AND did so, so I
don't see how it was the wrong thread!
Because it wasn't an explosion like Elayne did, a big enough explosion
to kill Aviendha and the Forsaken. It was only a weeny explosion.
...which either means she learned to control it and that should have
been explained more (as we already agreed), or it was just a mistake
in the writing.
So, shitty writing or erroneous writing. Which was my point,
and why I put it in this thread.
I'm going with the mistake option, but it's not a cardinal sin in my
view. I just think that the narrator was saying that Aviendha knew how
to unweave safely, as all Aiel did, and that she knew unweaving badly
(as Elayne had) could cause an explosion that would kill her
(Aviendha) and the Forsaken. So she was trying to do that, but (the
narrator says) she went wrong in her haste without even realising it
(how could she, given that she didn't know exactly what she was
supposed to be doing unsafely?), and the result was a weeny explosion.

I'm not sure how else he could have written it. I guess he could have
just repeated the old saw about the result being random, had her madly
unweave in the hopes of creating an Elayne-splosion, and then have an
explosion occur, leave us in suspense for a chapter or two, and then
come back with a "turns out the random result this time was a smaller
explosion and the Forsaken Compelled herself as a result, ha ha, quit
Compelling yourself, quit Compelling yourself."

I get the impression that this would also have been considered a bit
clumsy and all-too-convenient, but still. Maybe a mild improvement on
a mild lapse in the prose.




***@w
--
13 of 12, the CMM Collective
CHOW:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/chow-a-dance-with-dragons/
Give a hoot, read my book:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2012/07/18/arsebook-my-rear-in-status-2011/
Aaron
2013-04-11 11:54:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Right that's exactly what I'm saying. She was TRYING to create an
explosion, and at the point of the text saying she picked the
WRONG thread, she was still trying to do so AND did so, so I
don't see how it was the wrong thread!
Because it wasn't an explosion like Elayne did, a big enough explosion
to kill Aviendha and the Forsaken. It was only a weeny explosion.
...which either means she learned to control it and that should have
been explained more (as we already agreed), or it was just a mistake
in the writing.
So, shitty writing or erroneous writing. Which was my point,
and why I put it in this thread.
I'm going with the mistake option, but it's not a cardinal sin in my
view. I just think that the narrator was saying that Aviendha knew how
to unweave safely, as all Aiel did, and that she knew unweaving badly
(as Elayne had) could cause an explosion that would kill her
(Aviendha) and the Forsaken. So she was trying to do that, but (the
narrator says) she went wrong in her haste without even realising it
(how could she, given that she didn't know exactly what she was
supposed to be doing unsafely?), and the result was a weeny explosion.
I'm not sure how else he could have written it. I guess he could have
just repeated the old saw about the result being random, had her madly
unweave in the hopes of creating an Elayne-splosion, and then have an
explosion occur, leave us in suspense for a chapter or two, and then
come back with a "turns out the random result this time was a smaller
explosion and the Forsaken Compelled herself as a result, ha ha, quit
Compelling yourself, quit Compelling yourself."
I get the impression that this would also have been considered a bit
clumsy and all-too-convenient, but still. Maybe a mild improvement on
a mild lapse in the prose.
Fair enough and thank you for that. This is one of those times where I definitely bow to your opinion, you being a writer and me totally sucking at it.

-Aaron
Chucky @ Work
2013-04-11 11:59:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
So, shitty writing or erroneous writing. Which was my point,
and why I put it in this thread.
I'm going with the mistake option, but it's not a cardinal sin in my
view. I just think that the narrator was saying that Aviendha knew how
to unweave safely, as all Aiel did, and that she knew unweaving badly
(as Elayne had) could cause an explosion that would kill her
(Aviendha) and the Forsaken. So she was trying to do that, but (the
narrator says) she went wrong in her haste without even realising it
(how could she, given that she didn't know exactly what she was
supposed to be doing unsafely?), and the result was a weeny explosion.
I'm not sure how else he could have written it. I guess he could have
just repeated the old saw about the result being random, had her madly
unweave in the hopes of creating an Elayne-splosion, and then have an
explosion occur, leave us in suspense for a chapter or two, and then
come back with a "turns out the random result this time was a smaller
explosion and the Forsaken Compelled herself as a result, ha ha, quit
Compelling yourself, quit Compelling yourself."
I get the impression that this would also have been considered a bit
clumsy and all-too-convenient, but still. Maybe a mild improvement on
a mild lapse in the prose.
Fair enough and thank you for that. This is one of those times
where I definitely bow to your opinion, you being a writer and
me totally sucking at it.
Ah shucks. Well, it could certainly have been done differently, and I
know how you're knocked out of the mood by these things.


***@w
--
13 of 12, the CMM Collective
CHOW:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/chow-a-dance-with-dragons/
Give a hoot, read my book:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2012/07/18/arsebook-my-rear-in-status-2011/
Chucky @ Work
2013-04-12 11:04:31 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 20:47:26 +0300, Chucky & Janica
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Aaron
Post by Aaron
Moridin's not calling the shots now. The DO is, directly.
Well, quite. Which is also a bit different again, to the way it was during
the War of Power.
All right, good point there. But that works against
your argument I think, that Ishamael is seeking the
balefire now when he didn't have the baws to then.
He wasn't insane and world-weary after 3000 years in prison back then.
Post by Aaron
So it was just a myth that the Dark One wanted to destroy the Pattern, as was
talked about so much throughout the series? What did we learn, and when, to
make us doubt this?
Yes, I think it was a myth. Wasn't there something
in the Moiraine or Cadsuane discussions in MoL about this?
The DO went through several iterations of remaking
the world in his image before offering nothing (which
I see as destruction of the pattern). I see that as
proof it wasn't the only desired outcome for him/IT.
Quite so.
And Moridin does say that this is what *he* wants, not necessarily
what the Dark One wants.
Post by Aaron
I am really sorry I can't give more examples of
why I think this was canonically turned into a myth. I
can strive to do so, but not right now, I have no
resources. I hope that makes me a Dark One
Remake World Theorist, and not "-tard".
No, I was going to say it leaves us in our usual positions re: finding
evidence to back up our opinions, but you did go through the entire
last book with page references, so that's enough for me.
Post by Aaron
Yes ... but they don't *remember* them. Not even Moridin *remembered* them,
he was just mad-philosopher enough to know they they happened, and that he
took part.
I'm still operating under the theory that the DO
gives the orders, for the most part. Certainly
seemed to be the case near the end. Sometimes
through Moridin, sure, but not always.
I didn't see any evidence of that.
Incidentally, I completely lost track of who thought what here,
regarding balefire being used to devastate the armies of the Light and
unravel the universe in general.

But I just remembered something interesting. In those meetings between
the Dark One and Demandred that you were complaining about so much,
doesn't the Dark One ask straight up if Demandred would be willing to
unleash balefire in his service?

This suggests to me that, although Moridin's insane oblivion-wish
might have made him OK with balefire wiping out the Pattern and giving
him peace (therefore he might feasibly be expected to pass on the
orders himself), it wasn't just Moridin as I was suggesting (at least
at once point in the confusing-arse sequence above). The order did
sort of come from the Dark One in some way - as *you* were saying.

What I don't quite understand is how this then meshes with the idea
that "the Dark One wanting to destroy the Pattern is a myth" as you
were also putting forward (was your point just that these are
contradictory ideas and thus proof that Jordan's a hack?), and the way
the Dark One showed several ways out of the conflict without the
Pattern being destroyed, as well as showing the oblivion-option.

Now, like I say, I completely lost track of who thought what, and even
what I myself was really thinking. But unless the Dark One was just
asking Demandred to go and kill someone with balefire, it seems fairly
likely that he *was* giving the order for the Forsaken (or Demandred
at least) to do some destructive stuff with balefire and mess up the
Pattern. Or at least feeling out the Chosen's willingness to do so,
since we (again) get no detail.

Now, this plays nicely into Moridin's mad despairing wish for
oblivion, so he'd go along with it ... and I guess whether Rand loses
and the Pattern is reformed in the Dark One's image, or the Pattern is
destroyed utterly - either way, the Dark One wins (since he's outside
the Pattern, it seems like its destruction wouldn't actually affect
him and for all we know he could use his re-weaving mojo to make a new
one anyway, so it's all rather moot). So maybe he just figured he
might as well have that oblivion-option underway by the time the Final
Battle rolled around. Just in case. As it happens, it didn't get far
enough underway (seems to have started way too late) to do him much
good.

It's also worth keeping in mind that Taim, to my knowledge, doesn't
really use balefire after Demandred gets this order, unless I'm
mistaken. Another point against Taimandred - just not one I can
honestly claim to have thought of before now *grin*. So it didn't
affect my judgement at the time - but it does seem to inform the idea
of Jordan's intent re: Taim and Demandred, little bit.




***@w
--
13 of 12, the CMM Collective
CHOW:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/chow-a-dance-with-dragons/
Give a hoot, read my book:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2012/07/18/arsebook-my-rear-in-status-2011/
Aaron
2013-04-12 11:14:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky @ Work
Incidentally, I completely lost track of who thought what here,
regarding balefire being used to devastate the armies of the Light and
unravel the universe in general.
I thought the Forsaken were doing it and the DO was willing to be cool with it. To sum up generally.
Post by Chucky @ Work
But I just remembered something interesting. In those meetings between
the Dark One and Demandred that you were complaining about so much,
doesn't the Dark One ask straight up if Demandred would be willing to
unleash balefire in his service?
Indeed he/she/it did.
Post by Chucky @ Work
This suggests to me that, although Moridin's insane oblivion-wish
might have made him OK with balefire wiping out the Pattern and giving
him peace (therefore he might feasibly be expected to pass on the
orders himself), it wasn't just Moridin as I was suggesting (at least
at once point in the confusing-arse sequence above). The order did
sort of come from the Dark One in some way - as *you* were saying.
Depends on the interpretation, but a good point nonetheless.
Post by Chucky @ Work
What I don't quite understand is how this then meshes with the idea
that "the Dark One wanting to destroy the Pattern is a myth" as you
were also putting forward (was your point just that these are
contradictory ideas and thus proof that Jordan's a hack?), and the way
the Dark One showed several ways out of the conflict without the
Pattern being destroyed, as well as showing the oblivion-option.
Because it IS a myth? No one who says that, in the books, can provide citation that the DO ordered the destruction of the Pattern, right? I mean people basically assume that's what he/she/it wants, more or less, if I am thinking about this correctly. That's what I mean. Everything else is inference from what this or that Forsaken does, for the most part.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Now, like I say, I completely lost track of who thought what, and even
what I myself was really thinking. But unless the Dark One was just
asking Demandred to go and kill someone with balefire,
That's exactly how I read it. I thought he/she/it was considering just burning the Dragon from the Pattern and being done with this wheel shit. No more Dragon but surely the Pattern would still live on in that event?
Post by Chucky @ Work
it seems fairly
likely that he *was* giving the order for the Forsaken (or Demandred
at least) to do some destructive stuff with balefire and mess up the
Pattern. Or at least feeling out the Chosen's willingness to do so,
since we (again) get no detail.
Definitely feeling out, that too.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Now, this plays nicely into Moridin's mad despairing wish for
oblivion, so he'd go along with it ... and I guess whether Rand loses
and the Pattern is reformed in the Dark One's image, or the Pattern is
destroyed utterly - either way, the Dark One wins (since he's outside
the Pattern, it seems like its destruction wouldn't actually affect
him and for all we know he could use his re-weaving mojo to make a new
one anyway, so it's all rather moot). So maybe he just figured he
might as well have that oblivion-option underway by the time the Final
Battle rolled around. Just in case. As it happens, it didn't get far
enough underway (seems to have started way too late) to do him much
good.
Right. All good points.
Post by Chucky @ Work
It's also worth keeping in mind that Taim, to my knowledge, doesn't
really use balefire after Demandred gets this order, unless I'm
mistaken. Another point against Taimandred - just not one I can
honestly claim to have thought of before now *grin*. So it didn't
affect my judgement at the time - but it does seem to inform the idea
of Jordan's intent re: Taim and Demandred, little bit.
I see what you did there. Not really. Demandred, for all we know, didn't use balefire after that question from the DO either. We don't know because *we didn't fucking see Demandred for 9 books*!!!

So maybe Jordan didn't want Demandred to be Demandred originally, either! Maybe Taimandredites had it backwards the WHOLE time! Demandraim? New theory time!

*ignores screams of "NOOOOOO" and pleas for mercy, begins theorycrafting*

-Aaron
Chucky @ Work
2013-04-12 11:25:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
What I don't quite understand is how this then meshes with the idea
that "the Dark One wanting to destroy the Pattern is a myth" as you
were also putting forward (was your point just that these are
contradictory ideas and thus proof that Jordan's a hack?), and the way
the Dark One showed several ways out of the conflict without the
Pattern being destroyed, as well as showing the oblivion-option.
Because it IS a myth? No one who says that, in the books, can provide
citation that the DO ordered the destruction of the Pattern, right? I
mean people basically assume that's what he/she/it wants, more or
less, if I am thinking about this correctly. That's what I mean.
Everything else is inference from what this or that Forsaken does,
for the most part.
Yeah, I can't be bothered debating otherwise, myself. The idea that
the Dark One wanted balefire unleased in his service could be taken in
various ways, is all.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Now, like I say, I completely lost track of who thought what, and even
what I myself was really thinking. But unless the Dark One was just
asking Demandred to go and kill someone with balefire,
That's exactly how I read it. I thought he/she/it was considering
just burning the Dragon from the Pattern and being done with
this wheel shit. No more Dragon but surely the Pattern would
still live on in that event?
True. And I imagine that shit would appeal very strongly indeed to
Demandred.

Far more sensible order than this "go and become the Dragon's
second-in-command again" order that has been tossed around as a thing
the Dark One might have said.

*poker face*
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
it seems fairly
likely that he *was* giving the order for the Forsaken (or Demandred
at least) to do some destructive stuff with balefire and mess up the
Pattern. Or at least feeling out the Chosen's willingness to do so,
since we (again) get no detail.
Definitely feeling out, that too.
*nod* Works for me.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
It's also worth keeping in mind that Taim, to my knowledge, doesn't
really use balefire after Demandred gets this order, unless I'm
mistaken. Another point against Taimandred - just not one I can
honestly claim to have thought of before now *grin*. So it didn't
affect my judgement at the time - but it does seem to inform the idea
of Jordan's intent re: Taim and Demandred, little bit.
I see what you did there. Not really. Demandred, for all we know,
didn't use balefire after that question from the DO either. We
don't know because *we didn't fucking see Demandred for 9 books*!!!
Irrelevant. In this case we put "what we didn't see Demandred do or
not do one way or another" up against "what we most certainly did not
see Taim do". The "for all we know" is critical there.
Post by Aaron
So maybe Jordan didn't want Demandred to be Demandred
originally, either! Maybe Taimandredites had it backwards
the WHOLE time! Demandraim? New theory time!
*snicker*





***@w
--
13 of 12, the CMM Collective
CHOW:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/chow-a-dance-with-dragons/
Give a hoot, read my book:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2012/07/18/arsebook-my-rear-in-status-2011/
Chucky @ Work
2013-04-12 11:27:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Because it IS a myth? No one who says that, in the books, can provide
citation that the DO ordered the destruction of the Pattern, right? I
mean people basically assume that's what he/she/it wants, more or
less, if I am thinking about this correctly. That's what I mean.
Everything else is inference from what this or that Forsaken does,
for the most part.
Yeah, I can't be bothered debating otherwise, myself. The idea that
the Dark One wanted balefire unleased in his service could be taken in
various ways, is all.
Or, indeed, unleashed.

What's the rent like on balefire, anyway?




***@w

Rent ... IN THE SPACE-TIME CONTINUUM!!!
--
13 of 12, the CMM Collective
CHOW:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/chow-a-dance-with-dragons/
Give a hoot, read my book:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2012/07/18/arsebook-my-rear-in-status-2011/
Aaron
2013-04-12 16:39:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky @ Work
On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 20:47:26 +0300, Chucky & Janica
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Aaron
Post by Aaron
Moridin's not calling the shots now. The DO is, directly.
Well, quite. Which is also a bit different again, to the way it was during
the War of Power.
All right, good point there. But that works against
your argument I think, that Ishamael is seeking the
balefire now when he didn't have the baws to then.
He wasn't insane and world-weary after 3000 years in prison back then.
Post by Aaron
So it was just a myth that the Dark One wanted to destroy the Pattern, as was
talked about so much throughout the series? What did we learn, and when, to
make us doubt this?
Yes, I think it was a myth. Wasn't there something
in the Moiraine or Cadsuane discussions in MoL about this?
The DO went through several iterations of remaking
the world in his image before offering nothing (which
I see as destruction of the pattern). I see that as
proof it wasn't the only desired outcome for him/IT.
Quite so.
And Moridin does say that this is what *he* wants, not necessarily
what the Dark One wants.
Post by Aaron
I am really sorry I can't give more examples of
why I think this was canonically turned into a myth. I
can strive to do so, but not right now, I have no
resources. I hope that makes me a Dark One
Remake World Theorist, and not "-tard".
No, I was going to say it leaves us in our usual positions re: finding
evidence to back up our opinions, but you did go through the entire
last book with page references, so that's enough for me.
Post by Aaron
Yes ... but they don't *remember* them. Not even Moridin *remembered* them,
he was just mad-philosopher enough to know they they happened, and that he
took part.
I'm still operating under the theory that the DO
gives the orders, for the most part. Certainly
seemed to be the case near the end. Sometimes
through Moridin, sure, but not always.
I didn't see any evidence of that.
Incidentally, I completely lost track of who thought what here,
regarding balefire being used to devastate the armies of the Light and
unravel the universe in general.
But I just remembered something interesting. In those meetings between
the Dark One and Demandred that you were complaining about so much,
doesn't the Dark One ask straight up if Demandred would be willing to
unleash balefire in his service?
This suggests to me that, although Moridin's insane oblivion-wish
might have made him OK with balefire wiping out the Pattern and giving
him peace (therefore he might feasibly be expected to pass on the
orders himself), it wasn't just Moridin as I was suggesting (at least
at once point in the confusing-arse sequence above). The order did
sort of come from the Dark One in some way - as *you* were saying.
What I don't quite understand is how this then meshes with the idea
that "the Dark One wanting to destroy the Pattern is a myth" as you
were also putting forward (was your point just that these are
contradictory ideas and thus proof that Jordan's a hack?), and the way
the Dark One showed several ways out of the conflict without the
Pattern being destroyed, as well as showing the oblivion-option.
Now, like I say, I completely lost track of who thought what, and even
what I myself was really thinking. But unless the Dark One was just
asking Demandred to go and kill someone with balefire, it seems fairly
likely that he *was* giving the order for the Forsaken (or Demandred
at least) to do some destructive stuff with balefire and mess up the
Pattern. Or at least feeling out the Chosen's willingness to do so,
since we (again) get no detail.
Now, this plays nicely into Moridin's mad despairing wish for
oblivion, so he'd go along with it ... and I guess whether Rand loses
and the Pattern is reformed in the Dark One's image, or the Pattern is
destroyed utterly - either way, the Dark One wins (since he's outside
the Pattern, it seems like its destruction wouldn't actually affect
him and for all we know he could use his re-weaving mojo to make a new
one anyway, so it's all rather moot). So maybe he just figured he
might as well have that oblivion-option underway by the time the Final
Battle rolled around. Just in case. As it happens, it didn't get far
enough underway (seems to have started way too late) to do him much
good.
You know, as you have recently commented, this intense nitpicking has unearthed yet another "revelation" of sorts it might be fun to talk about.

The universe, the pattern, and the world in the WOT. Could it ALL be Demandred in disguise?

Wait no, that's not what I meant to write. Fuck.

The DO wants to recreate the Pattern in his image. Right? If he CAN do that, why fuck around with this world? Why not make his own world and fuck with THAT?

Is the Pattern the whole universe? But it's decided on this one world?

Maybe he can't really recreate it at all? Hence his offer of "nothing", which might be the only true offer he could make?

-Aaron
Chucky & Janica
2013-04-13 17:44:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron
You know, as you have recently commented, this
intense nitpicking has unearthed yet another
"revelation" of sorts it might be fun to talk about.
The universe, the pattern, and the world in the
WOT. Could it ALL be Demandred in disguise?
Bahahaha! I laugh at this for its own sake, but I laugh even harder
for the not-sure-if squint it made me do for two-thirds of a second
before I started laughing.
Post by Aaron
Wait no, that's not what I meant to write. Fuck.
The DO wants to recreate the Pattern in his image.
Right? If he CAN do that, why fuck around with this
world? Why not make his own world and fuck with THAT?
Is the Pattern the whole universe? But it's decided on
this one world?
I thought that was dealt with pretty nicely by the shades of other
people and alien races fighting the Final Battle that were visible
around the Bore. There *were* other worlds than these.
Post by Aaron
Maybe he can't really recreate it at all? Hence his
offer of "nothing", which might be the only true
offer he could make?
Well, could be. I think it was something he could have legitimately
offered Moridin, which helped keep the nutter in line. Maybe that was
a contributing reason for his being Nae'blis even after so many
failures - he was one of the only mortals willing and capable of
working towards the end the Dark One was really able to bring about.



C&J
Ilya the Recusant
2013-04-13 23:06:11 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 13 Apr 2013 20:44:05 +0300, Chucky & Janica
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Aaron
You know, as you have recently commented, this
intense nitpicking has unearthed yet another
"revelation" of sorts it might be fun to talk about.
The universe, the pattern, and the world in the
WOT. Could it ALL be Demandred in disguise?
Bahahaha! I laugh at this for its own sake, but I laugh even harder
for the not-sure-if squint it made me do for two-thirds of a second
before I started laughing.
I'm just disappointed that Bela didn't turn out to be Demandred. Or
the Dark One.
Post by Chucky & Janica
C&J
/i

Ilya the Recusant
-----------------
"Asshole" has a special place in my childhood, the point at which I
first learned that typical Americans were assholes.
- C&J
Chucky & Janica
2013-04-14 06:54:30 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 09:06:11 +1000, Ilya the Recusant
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Aaron
You know, as you have recently commented, this
intense nitpicking has unearthed yet another
"revelation" of sorts it might be fun to talk about.
The universe, the pattern, and the world in the
WOT. Could it ALL be Demandred in disguise?
Bahahaha! I laugh at this for its own sake, but I laugh even harder
for the not-sure-if squint it made me do for two-thirds of a second
before I started laughing.
I'm just disappointed that Bela didn't turn out to be Demandred. Or
the Dark One.
Bela was glorious though. I admit I shed a manly tear.




C&J
Ilya the Recusant
2013-04-14 09:16:54 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 09:54:30 +0300, Chucky & Janica
Post by Chucky & Janica
On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 09:06:11 +1000, Ilya the Recusant
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Aaron
You know, as you have recently commented, this
intense nitpicking has unearthed yet another
"revelation" of sorts it might be fun to talk about.
The universe, the pattern, and the world in the
WOT. Could it ALL be Demandred in disguise?
Bahahaha! I laugh at this for its own sake, but I laugh even harder
for the not-sure-if squint it made me do for two-thirds of a second
before I started laughing.
I'm just disappointed that Bela didn't turn out to be Demandred. Or
the Dark One.
Bela was glorious though. I admit I shed a manly tear.
You too, eh?

And damn if it wasn't so poignantly written, too.
Post by Chucky & Janica
C&J
Ilya



Ilya the Recusant

-----------------

"Asshole" has a special place in my childhood, the point at which I
first learned that typical Americans were assholes.
- C&J
Ilya the Recusant
2013-04-13 17:07:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
So, I really enjoyed it overall. He writes well enough. The book was
better, I'd say, than at least a few of the WOT installments. Numbers
7, 8, 10, 11, if I've got that right, for starters maybe?
Agreed.
Post by Aaron
*spoiler alert*
Although I read this damn book twice already, should be time to drop the spoiler alerts.
Ah well.
...
...
...
...
Cool traveling portal uses. I believe I'd seen almost all of those as fan ideas,
which makes it even cooler. And the lava portal is very similar to a scene
from the Donaldson duology "The mirror of her dreams"..."A man rides
through".
That was neat. I guess it was good that gateways were so difficult,
which made Androl's Talent so devastating but didn't render every
other weapon in the story irrelevant.
Post by Aaron
All the nostalgia of the main characters doing what it is they did
most throughout the series. At first it annoyed me, but I quickly
got over it.
Hee, yeah.
Post by Aaron
On that subject, some of those main characters getting a
come-uppance via a nice comeback, like Perrin to Nynaeve
about wolves vs. dogs.
Heh, I do believe I missed that one. I have a vague recollection but I
missed its significance ... except insofar as any time Perrin says
anything about wolves, it's all Fraught with Meaning.
Post by Aaron
Less Faile
Hee.
Post by Aaron
Mat no longer being tied to the horn...gave some nice moments
for me at least.
*nod*
Post by Aaron
Perrin stopped being a pussy!
Hooray! His fight with Slayer was too drawn-out, but that was the
style of their enmity. And the way Perrin was owning channelers and
making them go "ZOMGWTF" was cool. It's just a weave.
His hammer, and the whole "power-wrought weapons" thing, never really
had a chance to go anywhere.
Post by Aaron
A good ending, better than many authors' attempts, I'd say. I was
recently lamenting to Chucky, and have lamented over the years
to many others, that so very MANY authors suck at endings. I
thought this was...pretty well done.
Agreed.
Post by Aaron
An effective bunch of Forsaken, finally.
Yes!
Post by Aaron
Red Ajah coming to their fucking senses and doing some good
in the world.
Yes! And kudos to Sanderson for taking some interchangeable Aes Sedai
like Pevara and others, and making them distinctive and interesting.
Post by Aaron
Lan did it! You know what I mean! Woo!
Warder bonds being used against forces of the Light, Rand
specifically. Another fan idea IIRC.
Alanna was a terrible person all along, she never should have kept
that bond. I was hoping she would die and Rand would go nuts, and that
would be what finally killed his body but he would still have been
able to escape into Moridin's body. I don't know, would have added
some tension?
Post by Aaron
Ogier kicking some ass!
Yes indeed.
Post by Aaron
Tuon finally making some goddamn sense.
Enhh ... *flip-flops hand* She was still a bit of an irritating
arrogant dumbarse.
Post by Aaron
A use for Min's talent that brings her acclaim!
Yes, that was fairly unexpected and cool. And to be fair, would not
have happened (most likely) if Tuon had stopped being an irritating
arrogant dumbarse.
Post by Aaron
An army of Myrddraal!
Yeah, that was sweet.
Post by Aaron
Still too much Faile.
Heh. And not just Faile, but Faile In Peril Again. I mean, come on!
Call yourself a Saldaean?
Post by Aaron
One-sided Balefire usage for far too long. No way would the Light
have been holding so well under those conditions. He even illustrated
that in one scene just before Egwene discovers the counter to balefire.
Yeah, seems they weren't wiped out quite so dramatically as they
should have been, given how dangerous balefire was - the way it undid
bolstering / troop-moving actions performed by channelers, leaving
other parts of the army ready to be destroyed ... I think that was
just *so* devastating, the author was sort of obliged to gloss over it
a bit.
The cracks-in-the-universe were cool though.
Post by Aaron
I know, I know, the counter needed to be held back for effect.
But, basically, these battles should have been lost long before,
under those conditions.
Agreed.
Post by Aaron
No one can check the generals for compulsion and remove it,
regularly? Seems they should have expected that move by the shadow.
True, but I don't think it was Compulsion as such. Just interference
with them in the dream, power o' suggestion and all that.
Post by Aaron
Faile didn't die.
After so much fucking around, I would have been pissed if she'd died.
Not because I liked her (although I have never hated her as much as a
lot of readers seemed to), but because Perrin wasted so much of my
time looking after her, moping about her, arguing with her, worrying
about her ... to lose her at the end would just be a kick in the balls
I could live without.
Post by Aaron
No 4-way with Rand! That's right, I think pregnant women are
hot. I don't discriminate against any kind of pretty women ;D
You're a fair and just man.
Post by Aaron
Ok I can see I'm reaching, maybe more will shake out in the specifics
below. Basically my biggest problem was the battles were naive and
poorly planned out in terms of overall vision, like the balefire issue
above.
The balefire example I think was intentionally gimped, because (as I
found in the Steal) using it properly would have destroyed the
universe ages ago.
But yeah, overall I don't have the expertise to comment on the
battles, they seemed fine to me but I'm sure they were simplified and
incorrect in a plethora of ways.
Post by Aaron
So as I was reading, both times, I dog-eared several moments about which I
had particular issue or interest, wanting to see what others who enjoy this
series thought of those moments. So here they are, by page (but not
Page 27: Very awesome to see where Isam/Luc grew up and what happened
to the Aiel men channelers. Loved this and all related bits. I did find it a little
silly that Isam would have assumed male Aiel channelers immediately
stopped coming to the Blight just because the taint was cleansed...
what with all the doubt out there that surely he'd noticed. But anyway.
Yeah, that was cool. I liked the way they left that stuff (like Shara)
largely untouched but then brought it in at the end.
I was a bit puzzled by how it really worked in practice. So, male
channelers from the Aiel went there, and some were turned by force and
others went nuts and others, maybe, turned voluntarily? There were a
*lot* of them. And a lot of them couldn't channel. So, there were
non-channelers there too, it seems like *all* the Aiel who ever went
to the Blight ended up there. Presumably men and women, so they could
breed up a community there. Well, okay.
I liked it, anyway.
Post by Aaron
Page 32: Bayle says "what want you to do now?" Yeah, uhh, I knew
Illianers added "do" all the time, but I didn't think they rearranged
their sentences in Yoda-like (or is it just Irish Brogue-like?) fashion....
Heh, yeah. A bit messy.
Post by Aaron
Page 93: Yeah, the gholam...s? What about the other ones? You
would imagine, would you not, that the Great Lord would do it's
damndest to release all the others and set them to task, in the
Last Battle.... But we only had to deal with the one.
I was puzzled by this too. I thought there was only one. Okay, maybe
there were others sealed up in stasis pods, but nobody could get to
them (not even the Dark One, I can only assume). Otherwise, it would
have been done.
Post by Aaron
Page 103: Pevara bonds Androl, the reverse, after a fashion, of what
he did to her. Then down that page a bit, he bonds her back (what
did he do before?), and she is surprised by it, and he says she did
it first. Wait.... Ise confused....
I don't remember being confused by this. He channels (this is after
they have a rapey linking experiment and ignore each other's
safe-words, right?), she panics and bonds him (using the same theory
as the link they had already done - I assume because being a Red, she
never really learned the bonding weave properly), then he bonds her
because she didn't stop him from channeling.
She bonded him first, but he was being a jerk with the link (because
he was intoxicated by the power).
Post by Aaron
Cool how they are totally in one another's heads after that.
Yeah, that was fun.
Post by Aaron
Page 325: Cute interaction with Moiraine. It was good to have
her back, if only for a bit part (in terms of dialogue at least).
Agreed.
Post by Aaron
Page 328: 2 myrdraal at once! So, so fucking cool!
Lan rules.
Post by Aaron
Page 331: Not exactly sure why I have this one marked, but I think this
is it. 2 paces between horses makes a tight line? I would have thought
that a line could be quite a bit tighter than 6 feet between horses....
Horses jostle a lot, the riders need a bit of space, there's lances
and sword-arcs and all that sort of thing to take into account ... I
don't know, seems fine.
Post by Aaron
I'm trying to picture the cavalry charges from the LOTR movies,
they were almost touching....
Oh right, well, as long as we have academic consistency on this!
*grin*
Post by Aaron
But I don't know any more about such battles than, say,
Sanderson does. Hey. Sanders...Sanderson.... Just realized that.
...
OK.
Post by Aaron
Ok no that's a lie, but was waiting for a chance to drop it in.
Right.
Post by Aaron
Page 345: Gawyn battling Trollocs using a shield. Is a shield truly an
effective tactic against a foe that is so much stronger than you?
Sounds like he's TAKING the blows, not letting them glance by or
avoiding them, which has always been my understanding of
what you must do with a foe that is so much more powerful than
you are.
Indeed, seems a smart way to get your arm smashed.
Actually speaking of Lord of the Rings, this reminded me of the scene
in the third movie where (after the troll fight in the first movie)
Aragorn is exchanging sword-and-shield blows with a troll in full
armour. Nice superpowers-escalation there, Elessar.
Post by Aaron
Page 376: Direct detailing of a Trolloc passing through a gateway. So
this is as good a time as any to ask why in the hell luring and then opening
gateways wasn't a widely used tactic against the shadowspawn?
Gateways up into the air perhaps, so that the Sharans would fall to
their death? Such a waste....
Yeah, I guess they had to walk a line of gateways being super-useful,
but also quite tiring and only available to powerful channelers (and
Androl) or circles. Only the really powerful ones could make
deathgates, for example.
Maybe a volley of fireballs (or ten) were easier and more damaging
than a gateway trick.
Plus, the author had to maintain the balance of not overusing them, so
when they did get used in fun ways, it was actually interesting and
not just another gateway ruse.
Post by Aaron
Page 388: I like how Aviendha's relationship with Rand has been
softened a little, made less annoying with just a LITTLE bit of fucking
respect for the Dragon Reborn. Also, nice hinting at the
Callendor situation, making us wonder what the plan is, what
the flaw is, exactly.
Yeah, since Rand used Callandor to attempt to wipe out the Seanchan
back in Path of Daggers or even earlier, and Cadsuane told him about
the flaw (heck, even as far back as the Stone of Tear there was
something wrong), I do like how well-planned and long-buildup this
seemed to be.
Post by Aaron
Page 455: Lan...why the HELL would he use a sword form not intended
for horseback use, from horseback? Surely he's good enough to have
other choices? I just thought that writing was very clumsy.
*shrug* I guess.
Post by Aaron
Page 458: OK there's a problem here with something neat that
Sanderson decided to create. It seems that he is able to see Rand et al.
in the cavern, in the world of dreams even though they technically
entered there in the real world. And slayer is attacking them in the
world of dreams and somehow that's supposed to be dangerous even
though they are in the real world.... As opposed to dropping into the
real world like he usually does, to kill. But then when he shifts away
and Perrin follows, the Red Veils are now there in the world of
dreams? What?
Yeah, there was definitely something weird going on there, or at least
so I thought. The way people kept coming and going, almost like they
were sleepers appearing in the World of Dreams and then vanishing
again ... but then there was also the fact that there were freaking
*aliens* there fighting their own Last Battle ... that's when I
realised that it was the proximity to the Bore. It made the boundary
between the worlds thin, so things were bleeding back and forth.
Still, only the initiated could really see much. To ignorant
bystanders, Perrin and Slayer were popping in and out of existence.
Only in "Tel'Aran'Rhiod" were the ghostly real-world shades visible.
Post by Aaron
Or did they shift to the real world? Well, not possible because
Perrin doesn't know how, yet. And they couldn't have BEEN
in the real world because you don't shift into the world of
dreams, without channeling, immediately like Slayer did, and
again Perrin didn't know how.
Right. I think most of this stuff happened in Shayol Ghul, so it gets
a pass because anything can happen there.
Post by Aaron
Basically I can't think of a combination of events that makes
sense with what was written on this page.
I think it could have been done better. There did seem to be a lot of
rule-breaking bleed-over that should not have happened. It's not like
the fighting people were asleep or anything!
Post by Aaron
Page 481: I feel that Bashere's outburst here (against Tam) was
totally out of character. Almost as if the person writing this didn't
really know how Bashere typically behaved....
Wasn't Bashere also being mind-fucked?
Post by Aaron
Page 485: Bryne being initially disturbed that Uno isn't an officer
is totally out of character, both for Bryne being who he is,
and for a general during a deadly battle.
True. Mind-fucked.
Post by Aaron
Page 531: Totally awesome use of a gateway, should have
been sooner and happened more.
Yes.
I am not looking these up. What use? They were all mostly awesome.
Post by Aaron
Page 558: I really liked the character development of Galad here.
Turned him into a real person instead of a caricature.
Agreed.
And messing up his pretty face helped.
Post by Aaron
Page 590: I thought Moghedien said or implied that a weave to
detect male channeling wasn't a real thing. She pretended to
teach it to Nynaeve et al.... Did they learn it somehow?
When? Why was that not a bigger deal?
Yeah, I thought it was something Moghedien *thought* was not real, in
another example of Age-of-Legends-centric arrogance ... but Cadsuane
had a trinket that showed male channeling (maybe Moghedien was
half-lying, and there were ter'angreal but no actual *weaves*?), I
thought. Yeah, could have been made a bigger deal. After all the
whining about how men could sense a woman channeling automatically.
Post by Aaron
Page 612: Daishar Knob is the stupidest place name in this whole book.
Agreed.
Post by Aaron
And, on a side note...Mat can Travel with the amulet on? I would think
that counts as being affected directly by channeling....
Nah, there was precedent for this, the way he lured the gholam through
to the Skimming plane. Gateways don't dissolve around him.
I guess this also means that gholam, unlike Trollocs, could Travel
anyway.
Post by Aaron
Page 619: Great solution against Draghkar...against I'm pretty
sure I saw fans discussing this before.
Yep, pretty neat.
Post by Aaron
Page 694: I like these insights into Demandred. At the same time I kept
wondering how in the HELL he could not know that the Dragon was
confronting the DO in the cave.... Everyone else seemed to fucking
know it, Thom certainly had to fight off several BA....
Yeah. And Demandred has *been there*, so he'd know it was a cave.
Post by Aaron
Page 699: Uhh, again not an expert but I'm pretty fucking sure a
swordbreaker isn't a "sword breaker" because if you just raise it up, it
breaks the enemy sword. Don't you have to get the sword into
the V between swordbreaker blade and side-blade (don't know
the term) and twist?
I'd say so. Maybe it depends on the crappiness of the sword quality
and she speed and angle of the swing.
Post by Aaron
Page 711: I really liked the explanation of the way the Seanchan
work, on this page. Again made them less caricatures and more
real for me.
Agreed, although I'm not sure what you're referring to.
Post by Aaron
Page 765: Yeah if this balefire channeling has been going on all
along, this would already be over.
True. Something to be glossed over, I think. But there were probably
better ways to do it.
Post by Aaron
Page 787: Is Mellar that desperate? Not only is she very pregnant,
but soon she's about to be very bloodied up by having babies
cut out of her.... Who wants a piece of that pussay?
Yeah, but he's like a psycho-horny sleazebag version of you. And his
driving obsession has been Elayne all along. I thought it added to his
nasty-creep vibe very nicely.
Post by Aaron
Page 811: I'm stupid. Who was the woman cast from her throne and
made a puppet? Elayne's mommy? What was her--Morgase?
Can't remember who was talking about it. I think it was referring to
Morgase, yes.
Post by Aaron
She has so little mention in this book, why would he mention her
at that critical moment? Or is he talking about someone else? Who?
Well, Morgase's downfall was a pretty big deal. One of the first
nicely effective things a Forsaken did, actually, in the early books.
Made me momentarily have hope for them.
Post by Aaron
Page 834: Super-awesome strategy for the cannons. And,
Moghedien: ha ha!
Yes, and yes.
Post by Aaron
Page 847: Logain has changed so much, I'm not sure I buy it,
but I'm glad he changed back and did the right thing
He changed? We never really got much of a stable look at him, you
know. He was a captured False Dragon, then a gentled male channeler,
then a healed runaway Asha'man, then a victim of attempted Turning ...
that's all over the map.
Post by Aaron
Page 856: Finally! Finally we'll see Perrin stop being a pussy, stop
holding back!
Yeah, but I had a bit of a problem with this, myself. First of all, it
was too long coming. Okay, dramatic effect, granted ... but still,
ugh.
And secondly, he'd had epiphanies like this before. Liek when he
crippled that Aiel to get information about Faile. Seems to me he's
been struggling "hammer vs. axe" and letting his inner wolf go, and
finding his balance, repeatedly through this series. This last time
just didn't have the impact it could have, as a result.
Post by Aaron
Maybe he'll accidentally hit Faile too hard and.... Nah too much to
hope for. And yes I know I'm awful.
Hee. Yes you are.
Post by Aaron
Page 864: Shaisam? How the hell did he come up with that name? I hate it.
*snicker*
Some melding of Shai'tan and Isam?
Post by Aaron
Page 874: Why didn't he think of shifting further along Slayer's
intended path? That would have been cool.
Yeah.
Post by Aaron
Page 876: Again I'm pretty sure this is wrong. Blood doesn't actually
help crops to grow....
Um, well, okay. I guess.
Post by Aaron
Page 880: "in her haste, picked at the wrong thread." What? From
her thoughts just above, she WANTED it to explode. So why did
it get written as a mistake made in haste?
Maybe she was trying to finesse it a bit more?
Post by Aaron
Page 889: Great solution for Lanfear, glad Perrin was able to do what
Rand never would have been able to do.
Yes. Holy crap, I laughed aloud when this happened.
Post by Aaron
And, finally Faile is useful, if only this one time.
Hee.
Post by Aaron
OK I think that's all. Discuss.
There you go. Thanks for the review, this was sweet. I guess we could
be trying to divide stuff up into threads, but seriously, screw that.
We're totally good at dealing with epic texts.
Adding two more thus far unmentioned things (but because of the bit of
social activism I do, it caught my attention): Sanderson (or Jordan?
Hard to know which) have two different mention of gay and/or bi
characters in AMoL. It's been years since I've read the other books,
so maybe my memory is faulty, but I liked seeing the series attempt to
at least mention it.

It was a little thing, but, y'know, it was nice to see.
Ilya

Ilya the Recusant
-----------------
"Asshole" has a special place in my childhood, the point at which I
first learned that typical Americans were assholes.
- C&J
Chucky & Janica
2013-04-14 06:57:17 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 03:07:34 +1000, Ilya the Recusant
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Adding two more thus far unmentioned things (but because of the bit of
social activism I do, it caught my attention): Sanderson (or Jordan?
Hard to know which) have two different mention of gay and/or bi
characters in AMoL. It's been years since I've read the other books,
so maybe my memory is faulty, but I liked seeing the series attempt to
at least mention it.
Yeah, I liked that, one of the generals / lords was mentioned just
offhand about how he preferred boys / men. Nicely done. Can't recall
the other one.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
It was a little thing, but, y'know, it was nice to see.
But yeah, before this there was only titillating references to
"pillow-friends", handled in an entirely more juvenile fashion. Which
was okay, because I was juvenile at the time I was reading them.



I mean, technically, physically juvenile. I still *am* juvenile, by
most definitions. Boobs.

C&J
Ilya the Recusant
2013-04-14 09:19:26 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 09:57:17 +0300, Chucky & Janica
Post by Chucky & Janica
On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 03:07:34 +1000, Ilya the Recusant
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Adding two more thus far unmentioned things (but because of the bit of
social activism I do, it caught my attention): Sanderson (or Jordan?
Hard to know which) have two different mention of gay and/or bi
characters in AMoL. It's been years since I've read the other books,
so maybe my memory is faulty, but I liked seeing the series attempt to
at least mention it.
Yeah, I liked that, one of the generals / lords was mentioned just
offhand about how he preferred boys / men. Nicely done. Can't recall
the other one.
One was a conversation between Pevara and Androl, and the other
between Lan and one of the generals. And each man responded with
something along the lines of "Oh really? Oh." Like it was no big deal.
It made the little marriage equality activist in me happy.
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Ilya the Recusant
It was a little thing, but, y'know, it was nice to see.
But yeah, before this there was only titillating references to
"pillow-friends", handled in an entirely more juvenile fashion. Which
was okay, because I was juvenile at the time I was reading them.
Pillow friends. Sounds like when you're staying over at a friend's
house to bunk for the night. Camping indoors, if you will, as kids do
when they're kids. And as my cat sometimes does with my bed when I'm
sleeping. Right before she turns my head into a pillow.

*wince*
Post by Chucky & Janica
I mean, technically, physically juvenile. I still *am* juvenile, by
most definitions. Boobs.
Hee hee. Breasts.
Post by Chucky & Janica
C&J
Ilya




Ilya the Recusant

-----------------

"Asshole" has a special place in my childhood, the point at which I
first learned that typical Americans were assholes.
- C&J
Chucky & Janica
2013-04-14 14:52:37 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 19:19:26 +1000, Ilya the Recusant
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Adding two more thus far unmentioned things (but because of the bit of
social activism I do, it caught my attention): Sanderson (or Jordan?
Hard to know which) have two different mention of gay and/or bi
characters in AMoL. It's been years since I've read the other books,
so maybe my memory is faulty, but I liked seeing the series attempt to
at least mention it.
Yeah, I liked that, one of the generals / lords was mentioned just
offhand about how he preferred boys / men. Nicely done. Can't recall
the other one.
One was a conversation between Pevara and Androl,
That's right, yeah. Very interestingly done.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
and the other
between Lan and one of the generals. And each man responded with
something along the lines of "Oh really? Oh." Like it was no big deal.
It made the little marriage equality activist in me happy.
Indeed!
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Ilya the Recusant
It was a little thing, but, y'know, it was nice to see.
But yeah, before this there was only titillating references to
"pillow-friends", handled in an entirely more juvenile fashion. Which
was okay, because I was juvenile at the time I was reading them.
Pillow friends. Sounds like when you're staying over at a friend's
house to bunk for the night. Camping indoors, if you will, as kids do
when they're kids. And as my cat sometimes does with my bed when I'm
sleeping. Right before she turns my head into a pillow.
*wince*
Yeah, slumber party, tee hee, that was the style.

And hey, better a pillow than a litter box!
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
I mean, technically, physically juvenile. I still *am* juvenile, by
most definitions. Boobs.
Hee hee. Breasts.
"Breasts"? Oh, look who got all mature in the past five years.
Lah-dee-dah.




C&J
Ilya the Recusant
2013-04-16 11:43:50 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 17:52:37 +0300, Chucky & Janica
Post by Chucky & Janica
On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 19:19:26 +1000, Ilya the Recusant
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Ilya the Recusant
It was a little thing, but, y'know, it was nice to see.
But yeah, before this there was only titillating references to
"pillow-friends", handled in an entirely more juvenile fashion. Which
was okay, because I was juvenile at the time I was reading them.
Pillow friends. Sounds like when you're staying over at a friend's
house to bunk for the night. Camping indoors, if you will, as kids do
when they're kids. And as my cat sometimes does with my bed when I'm
sleeping. Right before she turns my head into a pillow.
*wince*
Yeah, slumber party, tee hee, that was the style.
And hey, better a pillow than a litter box!
Now *there's* an image.
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
I mean, technically, physically juvenile. I still *am* juvenile, by
most definitions. Boobs.
Hee hee. Breasts.
"Breasts"? Oh, look who got all mature in the past five years.
Lah-dee-dah.
Hard to claim that when one of the drinking songs we sing in my crowd
is a song about "brestices, lovely, squishy brestices!"

Engineers. Love it.
Post by Chucky & Janica
C&J
Ilya the Recusant

-----------------

"Asshole" has a special place in my childhood, the point at which I
first learned that typical Americans were assholes.
- C&J
Chucky & Janica
2013-04-17 11:40:32 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 16 Apr 2013 21:43:50 +1000, Ilya the Recusant
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
I mean, technically, physically juvenile. I still *am* juvenile, by
most definitions. Boobs.
Hee hee. Breasts.
"Breasts"? Oh, look who got all mature in the past five years.
Lah-dee-dah.
Hard to claim that when one of the drinking songs we sing in my crowd
is a song about "brestices, lovely, squishy brestices!"
Engineers. Love it.
"Brestices"?




C&J
David DeLaney
2013-04-17 18:32:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
I mean, technically, physically juvenile. I still *am* juvenile, by
most definitions. Boobs.
Hee hee. Breasts.
"Breasts"? Oh, look who got all mature in the past five years.
Lah-dee-dah.
Hard to claim that when one of the drinking songs we sing in my crowd
is a song about "brestices, lovely, squishy brestices!"
Engineers. Love it.
"Brestices"?
"Breastices". Some engineers aren't big on spelling.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from ***@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Chucky & Janica
2013-04-19 10:17:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Hard to claim that when one of the drinking songs we sing in my crowd
is a song about "brestices, lovely, squishy brestices!"
Engineers. Love it.
"Brestices"?
"Breastices". Some engineers aren't big on spelling.
What's the etymology there? Interstices? Choc-ices?




C&J
David DeLaney
2013-04-19 17:07:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Hard to claim that when one of the drinking songs we sing in my crowd
is a song about "brestices, lovely, squishy brestices!"
Engineers. Love it.
"Brestices"?
"Breastices". Some engineers aren't big on spelling.
What's the etymology there? Interstices? Choc-ices?
Probably more of a juvenile-reduplication thingy, "breasts" "breast-ess"
"breast-ices". Same sort of way you get to 'chesticles' or 'mamma-jammas'.

Dave, not all english words are fit to be seen in public
--
\/David DeLaney posting from ***@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Chucky & Janica
2013-04-20 07:12:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Hard to claim that when one of the drinking songs we sing in my crowd
is a song about "brestices, lovely, squishy brestices!"
Engineers. Love it.
"Brestices"?
"Breastices". Some engineers aren't big on spelling.
What's the etymology there? Interstices? Choc-ices?
Probably more of a juvenile-reduplication thingy, "breasts" "breast-ess"
"breast-ices".
Sort of a Gollum-speak thing?

Hey, did you hear about Gollum getting bored while watching the DVD
tour of the British Museum? He fast-forwarded through all the adzes.
Post by David DeLaney
Same sort of way you get to 'chesticles' or 'mamma-jammas'.
Breast-titties?



C&J, confused and out of touch.

Heh. Touch. Titties.
Ilya the Recusant
2013-04-18 21:08:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
I mean, technically, physically juvenile. I still *am* juvenile, by
most definitions. Boobs.
Hee hee. Breasts.
"Breasts"? Oh, look who got all mature in the past five years.
Lah-dee-dah.
Hard to claim that when one of the drinking songs we sing in my crowd
is a song about "brestices, lovely, squishy brestices!"
Engineers. Love it.
"Brestices"?
"Breastices". Some engineers aren't big on spelling.
Heh. Some.
Post by David DeLaney
Dave
Ilya

Ilya the Recusant

-----------------

"Asshole" has a special place in my childhood, the point at which I
first learned that typical Americans were assholes.
- C&J
Ilya the Recusant
2013-04-18 21:08:07 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:40:32 +0300, Chucky & Janica
Post by Chucky & Janica
On Tue, 16 Apr 2013 21:43:50 +1000, Ilya the Recusant
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
I mean, technically, physically juvenile. I still *am* juvenile, by
most definitions. Boobs.
Hee hee. Breasts.
"Breasts"? Oh, look who got all mature in the past five years.
Lah-dee-dah.
Hard to claim that when one of the drinking songs we sing in my crowd
is a song about "brestices, lovely, squishy brestices!"
Engineers. Love it.
"Brestices"?
One of our revue songs:

"Because she's just full of brestices, lovely squishy brestices!"

It's up there with 'Skulling Carlton Draught':

Now the sun is high in heaven
Somehow you wake up in Nimbem
Memories return unbidden
Skulling Carlton Draught!
Post by Chucky & Janica
C&J
Ilya

Ilya the Recusant

-----------------

"Asshole" has a special place in my childhood, the point at which I
first learned that typical Americans were assholes.
- C&J
Chucky & Janica
2013-04-20 07:17:50 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 07:08:07 +1000, Ilya the Recusant
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
"Breasts"? Oh, look who got all mature in the past five years.
Lah-dee-dah.
Hard to claim that when one of the drinking songs we sing in my crowd
is a song about "brestices, lovely, squishy brestices!"
Engineers. Love it.
"Brestices"?
"Because she's just full of brestices, lovely squishy brestices!"
*facepalm*

You just said that! You: "one of the drinking songs we sing in my
crowd is a song about "brestices, lovely, squishy brestices!"" You
don't need to keep saying it!

*double-take*

Wait, "full of brestices"? Now it definitely sounds like it comes from
"interstices". People are full of them too, aren't they? At least,
according to engineers and other idiots.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Now the sun is high in heaven
Somehow you wake up in Nimbem
Memories return unbidden
Skulling Carlton Draught!
STOP SAYING THINGS

Also, Carlton Draught is piss. I remember being trapped in Newcastle
one Easter, and that was the only beer on offer and it was awful.
AWFUL! Fucking engineers. No idea.


C&J
Ilya the Recusant
2013-04-21 10:55:33 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 20 Apr 2013 10:17:50 +0300, Chucky & Janica
Post by Chucky & Janica
On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 07:08:07 +1000, Ilya the Recusant
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
"Breasts"? Oh, look who got all mature in the past five years.
Lah-dee-dah.
Hard to claim that when one of the drinking songs we sing in my crowd
is a song about "brestices, lovely, squishy brestices!"
Engineers. Love it.
"Brestices"?
"Because she's just full of brestices, lovely squishy brestices!"
*facepalm*
You just said that! You: "one of the drinking songs we sing in my
crowd is a song about "brestices, lovely, squishy brestices!"" You
don't need to keep saying it!
*double-take*
Wait, "full of brestices"? Now it definitely sounds like it comes from
"interstices". People are full of them too, aren't they? At least,
according to engineers and other idiots.
Breastices, brestices. Whatever. I gave up on even trying to encourage
my engineer friends to spell things correctly, so most things
associated with them? It's like some sort of switch it thrown, making
me loose my ability to spell things correctly.
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Now the sun is high in heaven
Somehow you wake up in Nimbem
Memories return unbidden
Skulling Carlton Draught!
STOP SAYING THINGS
Make me.
Post by Chucky & Janica
Also, Carlton Draught is piss. I remember being trapped in Newcastle
one Easter, and that was the only beer on offer and it was awful.
AWFUL! Fucking engineers. No idea.
Oh come now. It's perfectly acceptable.
Post by Chucky & Janica
C&J
Ilya the Recusant

-----------------

"Asshole" has a special place in my childhood, the point at which I
first learned that typical Americans were assholes.
- C&J
Chucky @ Work
2013-04-22 06:06:23 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 21 Apr 2013 20:55:33 +1000, Ilya the Recusant
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
You just said that! You: "one of the drinking songs we sing in my
crowd is a song about "brestices, lovely, squishy brestices!"" You
don't need to keep saying it!
*double-take*
Wait, "full of brestices"? Now it definitely sounds like it comes from
"interstices". People are full of them too, aren't they? At least,
according to engineers and other idiots.
Breastices, brestices. Whatever. I gave up on even trying to encourage
my engineer friends to spell things correctly, so most things
associated with them?
The missing 'a' in 'brestices' was the least of my concerns. The
presence of 'ice' was higher on the list.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
It's like some sort of switch it thrown, making
me loose my ability to spell things correctly.
*suspicious squint*
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Now the sun is high in heaven
Somehow you wake up in Nimbem
Memories return unbidden
Skulling Carlton Draught!
STOP SAYING THINGS
Make me.
GAAAAAAAAAAHHHH..........
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
Also, Carlton Draught is piss. I remember being trapped in Newcastle
one Easter, and that was the only beer on offer and it was awful.
AWFUL! Fucking engineers. No idea.
Oh come now. It's perfectly acceptable.
I would also have accepted "it's a perfectly cromulent beer."




***@w (only, not really, since I am still on sick leave)
--
13 of 12, the CMM Collective
CHOW:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/chow-a-dance-with-dragons/
Give a hoot, read my book:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2012/07/18/arsebook-my-rear-in-status-2011/
Ilya the Recusant
2013-04-24 12:21:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky @ Work
GAAAAAAAAAAHHHH..........
Hey, you used the exact same line a few days ago.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
Also, Carlton Draught is piss. I remember being trapped in Newcastle
one Easter, and that was the only beer on offer and it was awful.
AWFUL! Fucking engineers. No idea.
Oh come now. It's perfectly acceptable.
I would also have accepted "it's a perfectly cromulent beer."
By Crom, I'm drinking it now!
Ilya


Ilya the Recusant
-----------------
"Asshole" has a special place in my childhood, the point at which I
first learned that typical Americans were assholes.
- C&J
Aaron
2013-04-22 11:40:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky & Janica
On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 07:08:07 +1000, Ilya the Recusant
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
"Breasts"? Oh, look who got all mature in the past five years.
Lah-dee-dah.
Hard to claim that when one of the drinking songs we sing in my crowd
is a song about "brestices, lovely, squishy brestices!"
Engineers. Love it.
"Brestices"?
"Because she's just full of brestices, lovely squishy brestices!"
*facepalm*
You just said that! You: "one of the drinking songs we sing in my
crowd is a song about "brestices, lovely, squishy brestices!"" You
don't need to keep saying it!
*double-take*
Wait, "full of brestices"? Now it definitely sounds like it comes from
"interstices". People are full of them too, aren't they? At least,
according to engineers and other idiots.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Now the sun is high in heaven
Somehow you wake up in Nimbem
Memories return unbidden
Skulling Carlton Draught!
STOP SAYING THINGS
Also, Carlton Draught is piss. I remember being trapped in Newcastle
Newcastle is also piss. The beer, not the place, I mean.

*imagines being trapped in a vat of Newcastle "brown ale"*

*shudders*

-Aaron
Chucky @ Work
2013-04-23 07:16:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky & Janica
Also, Carlton Draught is piss. I remember being trapped in Newcastle
Newcastle is also piss. The beer, not the place, I mean.
*imagines being trapped in a vat of Newcastle "brown ale"*
Argh, yes. Newcastle Brown is horrible. Actually Newcastle the place
is pretty bad too.



***@w
--
13 of 12, the CMM Collective
CHOW:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/chow-a-dance-with-dragons/
Give a hoot, read my book:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2012/07/18/arsebook-my-rear-in-status-2011/
David DeLaney
2013-04-14 16:51:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
Yeah, I liked that, one of the generals / lords was mentioned just
offhand about how he preferred boys / men. Nicely done. Can't recall
the other one.
One was a conversation between Pevara and Androl, and the other
between Lan and one of the generals. And each man responded with
something along the lines of "Oh really? Oh." Like it was no big deal.
It made the little marriage equality activist in me happy.
I'm fairly sure it made Leigh Butler squee with happiness while she was
composing her review, too. And hey, evidence we're actually dealing with
HUMANS rather than puppet aliens!
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Pillow friends. Sounds like when you're staying over at a friend's
house to bunk for the night. Camping indoors, if you will, as kids do
when they're kids.
Yep. Related to the theory (it could be bunnies!) that it's all just a phase
that kids go through and some of them never end it. Sleepover seductresses.
Visit vixens. You know.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from ***@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Ilya the Recusant
2013-04-16 11:40:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
Yeah, I liked that, one of the generals / lords was mentioned just
offhand about how he preferred boys / men. Nicely done. Can't recall
the other one.
One was a conversation between Pevara and Androl, and the other
between Lan and one of the generals. And each man responded with
something along the lines of "Oh really? Oh." Like it was no big deal.
It made the little marriage equality activist in me happy.
I'm fairly sure it made Leigh Butler squee with happiness while she was
composing her review, too. And hey, evidence we're actually dealing with
HUMANS rather than puppet aliens!
Really? Pleased to hear. Always wondered why the series felt so PG in
its sexuality. Adults were surely reading the series after all, so why
steralise it?
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Pillow friends. Sounds like when you're staying over at a friend's
house to bunk for the night. Camping indoors, if you will, as kids do
when they're kids.
Yep. Related to the theory (it could be bunnies!) that it's all just a phase
that kids go through and some of them never end it. Sleepover seductresses.
Visit vixens. You know.
Of course.
Post by David DeLaney
Dave
Ilya the Recusant

-----------------

"Asshole" has a special place in my childhood, the point at which I
first learned that typical Americans were assholes.
- C&J
Ilya the Recusant
2013-04-13 16:36:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron
So, I really enjoyed it overall. He writes well enough. The book was better, I'd say, than at least a few of the WOT installments. Numbers 7, 8, 10, 11, if I've got that right, for starters maybe?
*spoiler alert*
Although I read this damn book twice already, should be time to drop the spoiler alerts.
Ah well.
...
...
...
...
Cool traveling portal uses. I believe I'd seen almost all of those as fan ideas, which makes it even cooler. And the lava portal is very similar to a scene from the Donaldson duology "The mirror of her dreams"..."A man rides through".
All the nostalgia of the main characters doing what it is they did most throughout the series. At first it annoyed me, but I quickly got over it.
On that subject, some of those main characters getting a come-uppance via a nice comeback, like Perrin to Nynaeve about wolves vs. dogs.
Less Faile
Mat no longer being tied to the horn...gave some nice moments for me at least.
Perrin stopped being a pussy!
A good ending, better than many authors' attempts, I'd say. I was recently lamenting to Chucky, and have lamented over the years to many others, that so very MANY authors suck at endings. I thought this was...pretty well done.
An effective bunch of Forsaken, finally.
Red Ajah coming to their fucking senses and doing some good in the world.
Lan did it! You know what I mean! Woo!
Warder bonds being used against forces of the Light, Rand specifically. Another fan idea IIRC.
Ogier kicking some ass!
Tuon finally making some goddamn sense.
A use for Min's talent that brings her acclaim!
An army of Myrddraal!
Still too much Faile.
One-sided Balefire usage for far too long. No way would the Light have been holding so well under those conditions. He even illustrated that in one scene just before Egwene discovers the counter to balefire.
I know, I know, the counter needed to be held back for effect. But, basically, these battles should have been lost long before, under those conditions.
No one can check the generals for compulsion and remove it, regularly? Seems they should have expected that move by the shadow.
Faile didn't die.
No 4-way with Rand! That's right, I think pregnant women are hot. I don't discriminate against any kind of pretty women ;D
Ok I can see I'm reaching, maybe more will shake out in the specifics below. Basically my biggest problem was the battles were naive and poorly planned out in terms of overall vision, like the balefire issue above.
Page 27: Very awesome to see where Isam/Luc grew up and what happened to the Aiel men channelers. Loved this and all related bits. I did find it a little silly that Isam would have assumed male Aiel channelers immediately stopped coming to the Blight just because the taint was cleansed...what with all the doubt out there that surely he'd noticed. But anyway.
Page 32: Bayle says "what want you to do now?" Yeah, uhh, I knew Illianers added "do" all the time, but I didn't think they rearranged their sentences in Yoda-like (or is it just Irish Brogue-like?) fashion....
Page 93: Yeah, the gholam...s? What about the other ones? You would imagine, would you not, that the Great Lord would do it's damndest to release all the others and set them to task, in the Last Battle.... But we only had to deal with the one.
Page 103: Pevara bonds Androl, the reverse, after a fashion, of what he did to her. Then down that page a bit, he bonds her back (what did he do before?), and she is surprised by it, and he says she did it first. Wait.... Ise confused....
Cool how they are totally in one another's heads after that.
Page 325: Cute interaction with Moiraine. It was good to have her back, if only for a bit part (in terms of dialogue at least).
Page 328: 2 myrdraal at once! So, so fucking cool!
Page 331: Not exactly sure why I have this one marked, but I think this is it. 2 paces between horses makes a tight line? I would have thought that a line could be quite a bit tighter than 6 feet between horses.... I'm trying to picture the cavalry charges from the LOTR movies, they were almost touching.... But I don't know any more about such battles than, say, Sanderson does. Hey. Sanders...Sanderson.... Just realized that.
Ok no that's a lie, but was waiting for a chance to drop it in.
Page 345: Gawyn battling Trollocs using a shield. Is a shield truly an effective tactic against a foe that is so much stronger than you? Sounds like he's TAKING the blows, not letting them glance by or avoiding them, which has always been my understanding of what you must do with a foe that is so much more powerful than you are.
Page 376: Direct detailing of a Trolloc passing through a gateway. So this is as good a time as any to ask why in the hell luring and then opening gateways wasn't a widely used tactic against the shadowspawn? Gateways up into the air perhaps, so that the Sharans would fall to their death? Such a waste....
Page 388: I like how Aviendha's relationship with Rand has been softened a little, made less annoying with just a LITTLE bit of fucking respect for the Dragon Reborn. Also, nice hinting at the Callendor situation, making us wonder what the plan is, what the flaw is, exactly.
Page 455: Lan...why the HELL would he use a sword form not intended for horseback use, from horseback? Surely he's good enough to have other choices? I just thought that writing was very clumsy.
Page 458: OK there's a problem here with something neat that Sanderson decided to create. It seems that he is able to see Rand et al. in the cavern, in the world of dreams even though they technically entered there in the real world. And slayer is attacking them in the world of dreams and somehow that's supposed to be dangerous even though they are in the real world.... As opposed to dropping into the real world like he usually does, to kill. But then when he shifts away and Perrin follows, the Red Veils are now there in the world of dreams? What?
Or did they shift to the real world? Well, not possible because Perrin doesn't know how, yet. And they couldn't have BEEN in the real world because you don't shift into the world of dreams, without channeling, immediately like Slayer did, and again Perrin didn't know how.
Basically I can't think of a combination of events that makes sense with what was written on this page.
Page 481: I feel that Bashere's outburst here (against Tam) was totally out of character. Almost as if the person writing this didn't really know how Bashere typically behaved....
Page 485: Bryne being initially disturbed that Uno isn't an officer is totally out of character, both for Bryne being who he is, and for a general during a deadly battle.
Page 531: Totally awesome use of a gateway, should have been sooner and happened more.
Page 558: I really liked the character development of Galad here. Turned him into a real person instead of a caricature.
Page 590: I thought Moghedien said or implied that a weave to detect male channeling wasn't a real thing. She pretended to teach it to Nynaeve et al.... Did they learn it somehow? When? Why was that not a bigger deal?
Page 612: Daishar Knob is the stupidest place name in this whole book. And, on a side note...Mat can Travel with the amulet on? I would think that counts as being affected directly by channeling....
Page 619: Great solution against Draghkar...against I'm pretty sure I saw fans discussing this before.
Page 694: I like these insights into Demandred. At the same time I kept wondering how in the HELL he could not know that the Dragon was confronting the DO in the cave.... Everyone else seemed to fucking know it, Thom certainly had to fight off several BA....
Page 699: Uhh, again not an expert but I'm pretty fucking sure a swordbreaker isn't a "sword breaker" because if you just raise it up, it breaks the enemy sword. Don't you have to get the sword into the V between swordbreaker blade and side-blade (don't know the term) and twist?
Page 711: I really liked the explanation of the way the Seanchan work, on this page. Again made them less caricatures and more real for me.
Page 765: Yeah if this balefire channeling has been going on all along, this would already be over.
Page 787: Is Mellar that desperate? Not only is she very pregnant, but soon she's about to be very bloodied up by having babies cut out of her.... Who wants a piece of that pussay?
Page 811: I'm stupid. Who was the woman cast from her throne and made a puppet? Elayne's mommy? What was her--Morgase? She has so little mention in this book, why would he mention her at that critical moment? Or is he talking about someone else? Who?
Page 834: Super-awesome strategy for the cannons. And, Moghedien: ha ha!
Page 847: Logain has changed so much, I'm not sure I buy it, but I'm glad he changed back and did the right thing
Page 856: Finally! Finally we'll see Perrin stop being a pussy, stop holding back! Maybe he'll accidentally hit Faile too hard and.... Nah too much to hope for. And yes I know I'm awful.
Page 864: Shaisam? How the hell did he come up with that name? I hate it.
Page 874: Why didn't he think of shifting further along Slayer's intended path? That would have been cool.
Page 876: Again I'm pretty sure this is wrong. Blood doesn't actually help crops to grow....
Page 880: "in her haste, picked at the wrong thread." What? From her thoughts just above, she WANTED it to explode. So why did it get written as a mistake made in haste?
Page 889: Great solution for Lanfear, glad Perrin was able to do what Rand never would have been able to do. And, finally Faile is useful, if only this one time.
OK I think that's all. Discuss.
I'll get to the rest of this tomorrow, as it's late, and I'm sleepy.

However, having finished the book a few hours ago (a fact I'm still
not happy about, due to it having been a part of my life for 17 years
now), my own thoughts turn less to what's been wrapped up than the
accomplishments of Sanderson and his editor(s). It's an impressive
feat.

From a purely professional point of view - especially from an
editorial vantage, the last three books were excellently balanced. I
have nothing but praise for what Sanderson and company have pulled
off.

And I cannot begin to imagine how terrifying and stressful it must
have been to be in Sanderson's position, when forced to sit down and
finish the work of his hero.

Occasional grammatical errors and spelling mistakes aside: I am
impressed, both as a long-time reader and as someone who works in the
publishing field.

Which only heightens my sadness, knowing it's all over. But damn what
a spectacular fucking ending.

And you know, there's something satisfying about seeing an ending that
didn't match what I had, for many years, thought would happen, in my
mind.

Tis immensely pleasing, to be that surprised. Really.
Post by Aaron
-Aaron
Ilya
Ilya the Recusant
-----------------
"Asshole" has a special place in my childhood, the point at which I
first learned that typical Americans were assholes.
- C&J
Chucky & Janica
2013-04-14 07:21:50 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 02:36:46 +1000, Ilya the Recusant
Post by Ilya the Recusant
I'll get to the rest of this tomorrow, as it's late, and I'm sleepy.
However, having finished the book a few hours ago (a fact I'm still
not happy about, due to it having been a part of my life for 17 years
now), my own thoughts turn less to what's been wrapped up than the
accomplishments of Sanderson and his editor(s). It's an impressive
feat.
He did a great job.

I propose that we begin discussing Sanderson's books here now,
by-and-by. I finished the first book of the Stormlight Archive a while
back, I think Sanderson can freely inherit this newsgroup.

But still plenty to talk about here.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
From a purely professional point of view - especially from an
editorial vantage, the last three books were excellently balanced. I
have nothing but praise for what Sanderson and company have pulled
off.
*nod*
Post by Ilya the Recusant
And I cannot begin to imagine how terrifying and stressful it must
have been to be in Sanderson's position, when forced to sit down and
finish the work of his hero.
Holy crap, yes.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Occasional grammatical errors and spelling mistakes aside: I am
impressed, both as a long-time reader and as someone who works in the
publishing field.
Which only heightens my sadness, knowing it's all over. But damn what
a spectacular fucking ending.
And you know, there's something satisfying about seeing an ending that
didn't match what I had, for many years, thought would happen, in my
mind.
Tis immensely pleasing, to be that surprised. Really.
Indeed. To be honest I can't really recall ever thinking much about
how it was going to end. Breaking away the seals and repairing the
bore properly - as he did - I sort of assumed was a given, although I
did suspect that it was maybe *too* obvious and so it would happen
some other way.

The actual details, saidar and saidin and the True Power through
Callandor and Moridin - I didn't see coming. So that made it okay
again.

And Rand dying, and yet living, was also nicely done. The body-swap
was a little weird and unprecedented, but I guess it worked and the
groundwork has been there ever since Rand and Moridin crossed
balefires in Shadar Logoth lo all those many months and books ago. The
alternatives I was seeing mainly revolved around hideously
unsatisfying possibilities like Nynaeve finding a way to heal death,
or Rand not dying at all, merely spilling blood (as he did, at the
beginning of the last book). Or, even worse, his offspring just being
there, satisfying one interpretation of the prophecy.

Of the more esoteric ideas I had about how it might end, I think this
was still the more supportable and all in all it worked well. But I
really never thought about it that much. It just seemed so far off.



C&J
Ilya the Recusant
2013-04-16 14:03:09 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 10:21:50 +0300, Chucky & Janica
Post by Chucky & Janica
On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 02:36:46 +1000, Ilya the Recusant
I propose that we begin discussing Sanderson's books here now,
by-and-by. I finished the first book of the Stormlight Archive a while
back, I think Sanderson can freely inherit this newsgroup.
No complaints from me. And I'll try and find a copy of the Stormlight
Archive. But it might have to wait - in the midst of reading Walter
John Williams' Dagmar Shaw books.
Post by Chucky & Janica
But still plenty to talk about here.
Like who killed those two lesbian Aes Sedai in book 8, right?

Or Asmodean.
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Occasional grammatical errors and spelling mistakes aside: I am
impressed, both as a long-time reader and as someone who works in the
publishing field.
Which only heightens my sadness, knowing it's all over. But damn what
a spectacular fucking ending.
And you know, there's something satisfying about seeing an ending that
didn't match what I had, for many years, thought would happen, in my
mind.
Tis immensely pleasing, to be that surprised. Really.
Indeed. To be honest I can't really recall ever thinking much about
how it was going to end. Breaking away the seals and repairing the
bore properly - as he did - I sort of assumed was a given, although I
did suspect that it was maybe *too* obvious and so it would happen
some other way.
Ditto. I always thought that *somehow*, Dragonmount would come into
play. Somehow. And then I realised: Shoyol Ghul *is* Rand's
Dragonmount. Very clever parallel, that.
Post by Chucky & Janica
The actual details, saidar and saidin and the True Power through
Callandor and Moridin - I didn't see coming. So that made it okay
again.
Tis my thinking. I always thought that there's be more keys to other
choeden kal hidden away somewhere. Or, Jad help us, perhaps Rand would
get all John Sherdin on us and tell the DO to get the hell out of our
universe.

*shudder*
Post by Chucky & Janica
And Rand dying, and yet living, was also nicely done. The body-swap
was a little weird and unprecedented, but I guess it worked and the
groundwork has been there ever since Rand and Moridin crossed
balefires in Shadar Logoth lo all those many months and books ago. The
alternatives I was seeing mainly revolved around hideously
unsatisfying possibilities like Nynaeve finding a way to heal death,
or Rand not dying at all, merely spilling blood (as he did, at the
beginning of the last book). Or, even worse, his offspring just being
there, satisfying one interpretation of the prophecy.
And isn't it nice that it's not neatly explained with a bow-tie and a
cherry on top? A bit like real life. Or Doctor Who. "The universe is
big, its vast and complicated, and ridiculous. And sometimes, very
rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles".
Post by Chucky & Janica
Of the more esoteric ideas I had about how it might end, I think this
was still the more supportable and all in all it worked well. But I
really never thought about it that much. It just seemed so far off.
Even more interesting - playing connect the narrative dots, to see if
you can work out how the plot would progress. What would Tarmon
Gai'don look like? Where would it have taken place? How would it have
taken place? Etc.
Post by Chucky & Janica
C&J
Ilya the Recusant

-----------------

"Asshole" has a special place in my childhood, the point at which I
first learned that typical Americans were assholes.
- C&J
Chucky & Janica
2013-04-17 11:46:01 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 00:03:09 +1000, Ilya the Recusant
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
I propose that we begin discussing Sanderson's books here now,
by-and-by. I finished the first book of the Stormlight Archive a while
back, I think Sanderson can freely inherit this newsgroup.
No complaints from me. And I'll try and find a copy of the Stormlight
Archive. But it might have to wait - in the midst of reading Walter
John Williams' Dagmar Shaw books.
Yar, first book of the series is called "The Way of Kings", it was
pretty good. According to his website he's made a good start on draft
1 of the second book, but I'm not going to be holding my breath.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
But still plenty to talk about here.
Like who killed those two lesbian Aes Sedai in book 8, right?
Right.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Or Asmodean.
Or that. Or who killed that twin, what was her name, Adelas or
Vandene, one of them died and the other one went psycho.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
Indeed. To be honest I can't really recall ever thinking much about
how it was going to end. Breaking away the seals and repairing the
bore properly - as he did - I sort of assumed was a given, although I
did suspect that it was maybe *too* obvious and so it would happen
some other way.
Ditto. I always thought that *somehow*, Dragonmount would come into
play. Somehow. And then I realised: Shoyol Ghul *is* Rand's
Dragonmount. Very clever parallel, that.
Heh. As I said all along, they're the same mountain!

Seriously though, Rand did have his epiphany on Dragonmount, where he
let go of his Lews Therin neuroses and became the Golden Child.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Tis my thinking. I always thought that there's be more keys to other
choeden kal hidden away somewhere. Or, Jad help us, perhaps Rand would
get all John Sherdin on us and tell the DO to get the hell out of our
universe.
*snicker*

Weird, I always did sort of see Bashere as Molari, and I guess that
makes Mazrim Taim into G'kar. I was sure those two would have their
showdown in the end, and I was sort of disappointed that it didn't
happen.

In fact, didn't Bashere die off-screen? Actually that was ... I don't
know, was that disappointing or gritty-realistic?
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
And Rand dying, and yet living, was also nicely done. The body-swap
was a little weird and unprecedented, but I guess it worked and the
groundwork has been there ever since Rand and Moridin crossed
balefires in Shadar Logoth lo all those many months and books ago. The
alternatives I was seeing mainly revolved around hideously
unsatisfying possibilities like Nynaeve finding a way to heal death,
or Rand not dying at all, merely spilling blood (as he did, at the
beginning of the last book). Or, even worse, his offspring just being
there, satisfying one interpretation of the prophecy.
And isn't it nice that it's not neatly explained with a bow-tie and a
cherry on top? A bit like real life. Or Doctor Who. "The universe is
big, its vast and complicated, and ridiculous. And sometimes, very
rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles".
Exactly.

And Moridin got his Davros-moment.




C&J
Ilya the Recusant
2013-04-21 10:59:03 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:46:01 +0300, Chucky & Janica
Post by Chucky & Janica
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 00:03:09 +1000, Ilya the Recusant
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
I propose that we begin discussing Sanderson's books here now,
by-and-by. I finished the first book of the Stormlight Archive a while
back, I think Sanderson can freely inherit this newsgroup.
No complaints from me. And I'll try and find a copy of the Stormlight
Archive. But it might have to wait - in the midst of reading Walter
John Williams' Dagmar Shaw books.
Yar, first book of the series is called "The Way of Kings", it was
pretty good. According to his website he's made a good start on draft
1 of the second book, but I'm not going to be holding my breath.
He's young yet, and has some life in him. That must account for
something.
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
But still plenty to talk about here.
Like who killed those two lesbian Aes Sedai in book 8, right?
Right.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Or Asmodean.
Or that. Or who killed that twin, what was her name, Adelas or
Vandene, one of them died and the other one went psycho.
Right. Those two. It was Contro. Or maybe Bourque. Or John Novak III
or whatever his name is.
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Tis my thinking. I always thought that there's be more keys to other
choeden kal hidden away somewhere. Or, Jad help us, perhaps Rand would
get all John Sherdin on us and tell the DO to get the hell out of our
universe.
*snicker*
Weird, I always did sort of see Bashere as Molari, and I guess that
makes Mazrim Taim into G'kar. I was sure those two would have their
showdown in the end, and I was sort of disappointed that it didn't
happen.
Now there's a scene that would have added even more to an already
excellent book.
Post by Chucky & Janica
In fact, didn't Bashere die off-screen? Actually that was ... I don't
know, was that disappointing or gritty-realistic?
I believe he did, aye.
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
And Rand dying, and yet living, was also nicely done. The body-swap
was a little weird and unprecedented, but I guess it worked and the
groundwork has been there ever since Rand and Moridin crossed
balefires in Shadar Logoth lo all those many months and books ago. The
alternatives I was seeing mainly revolved around hideously
unsatisfying possibilities like Nynaeve finding a way to heal death,
or Rand not dying at all, merely spilling blood (as he did, at the
beginning of the last book). Or, even worse, his offspring just being
there, satisfying one interpretation of the prophecy.
And isn't it nice that it's not neatly explained with a bow-tie and a
cherry on top? A bit like real life. Or Doctor Who. "The universe is
big, its vast and complicated, and ridiculous. And sometimes, very
rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles".
Exactly.
And Moridin got his Davros-moment.
I wonder how long he was waiting for it. Imagine him having dinner,
sitting down at the table, enjoying a nice glass of Randlandian
Merlot, and plotting, planning, awaiting his showdown with Rand, and
the chance to scowl, in some Ernst Bloefeld kind of way.

Heh. Wheel of Time: Behind the Scenes!
Post by Chucky & Janica
C&J
Ilya the Recusant

-----------------

"Asshole" has a special place in my childhood, the point at which I
first learned that typical Americans were assholes.
- C&J
Chucky @ Work
2013-04-22 06:09:49 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 21 Apr 2013 20:59:03 +1000, Ilya the Recusant
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Tis my thinking. I always thought that there's be more keys to other
choeden kal hidden away somewhere. Or, Jad help us, perhaps Rand would
get all John Sherdin on us and tell the DO to get the hell out of our
universe.
*snicker*
Weird, I always did sort of see Bashere as Molari, and I guess that
makes Mazrim Taim into G'kar. I was sure those two would have their
showdown in the end, and I was sort of disappointed that it didn't
happen.
Now there's a scene that would have added even more to an already
excellent book.
Except Taim would have just exploded him, like Maizecake Taim does so
many, many times to people in the Steal. Channeler vs. non-channeler
is just unfair.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky @ Work
In fact, didn't Bashere die off-screen? Actually that was ... I don't
know, was that disappointing or gritty-realistic?
I believe he did, aye.
Yeah, not entirely convinced I liked that.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Ilya the Recusant
And isn't it nice that it's not neatly explained with a bow-tie and a
cherry on top? A bit like real life. Or Doctor Who. "The universe is
big, its vast and complicated, and ridiculous. And sometimes, very
rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles".
Exactly.
And Moridin got his Davros-moment.
I wonder how long he was waiting for it. Imagine him having dinner,
sitting down at the table, enjoying a nice glass of Randlandian
*ahem* Chaggabaggawoggalandian, please.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Merlot, and plotting, planning, awaiting his showdown with Rand, and
the chance to scowl, in some Ernst Bloefeld kind of way.
Bahahaha, yes. For thousands and thousands of years. No wonder he was
insane, that is a butt-ton of merlot.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Heh. Wheel of Time: Behind the Scenes!
Go!




***@w (only, not really, since I am still on sick leave)
--
13 of 12, the CMM Collective
CHOW:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/chow-a-dance-with-dragons/
Give a hoot, read my book:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2012/07/18/arsebook-my-rear-in-status-2011/
Ilya the Recusant
2013-04-24 12:24:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky @ Work
On Sun, 21 Apr 2013 20:59:03 +1000, Ilya the Recusant
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Tis my thinking. I always thought that there's be more keys to other
choeden kal hidden away somewhere. Or, Jad help us, perhaps Rand would
get all John Sherdin on us and tell the DO to get the hell out of our
universe.
*snicker*
Weird, I always did sort of see Bashere as Molari, and I guess that
makes Mazrim Taim into G'kar. I was sure those two would have their
showdown in the end, and I was sort of disappointed that it didn't
happen.
Now there's a scene that would have added even more to an already
excellent book.
Except Taim would have just exploded him, like Maizecake Taim does so
many, many times to people in the Steal. Channeler vs. non-channeler
is just unfair.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky @ Work
In fact, didn't Bashere die off-screen? Actually that was ... I don't
know, was that disappointing or gritty-realistic?
I believe he did, aye.
Yeah, not entirely convinced I liked that.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Ilya the Recusant
And isn't it nice that it's not neatly explained with a bow-tie and a
cherry on top? A bit like real life. Or Doctor Who. "The universe is
big, its vast and complicated, and ridiculous. And sometimes, very
rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles".
Exactly.
And Moridin got his Davros-moment.
I wonder how long he was waiting for it. Imagine him having dinner,
sitting down at the table, enjoying a nice glass of Randlandian
*ahem* Chaggabaggawoggalandian, please.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Merlot, and plotting, planning, awaiting his showdown with Rand, and
the chance to scowl, in some Ernst Bloefeld kind of way.
Bahahaha, yes. For thousands and thousands of years. No wonder he was
insane, that is a butt-ton of merlot.
Meanwhile, Graendal's all pissy because no one drinks her favourite
blend.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Heh. Wheel of Time: Behind the Scenes!
Go!
You can write it! You're the one writing the Steal! Integrate it!
Ilya

Ilya the Recusant
-----------------
"Asshole" has a special place in my childhood, the point at which I
first learned that typical Americans were assholes.
- C&J
Chucky & Janica
2013-04-26 14:25:58 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 24 Apr 2013 22:24:19 +1000, Ilya the Recusant
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Heh. Wheel of Time: Behind the Scenes!
Go!
You can write it! You're the one writing the Steal! Integrate it!
Actually Satters may have authorial control of that, he was the one
who started writing a Making of the Steal of Time series, wherein he
basically took all the insulting stuff I wrote about him in the Steal,
and made it so it was being said about me.

It was classic.




C&J
Aaron
2013-04-26 16:32:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky & Janica
On Wed, 24 Apr 2013 22:24:19 +1000, Ilya the Recusant
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Heh. Wheel of Time: Behind the Scenes!
Go!
You can write it! You're the one writing the Steal! Integrate it!
Actually Satters may have authorial control of that, he was the one
who started writing a Making of the Steal of Time series, wherein he
basically took all the insulting stuff I wrote about him in the Steal,
and made it so it was being said about me.
It was classic.
If by "classic" you mean "derivative".

*snoots*

-Aaron
Chucky @ Work
2013-04-27 13:28:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky & Janica
Actually Satters may have authorial control of that, he was the one
who started writing a Making of the Steal of Time series, wherein he
basically took all the insulting stuff I wrote about him in the Steal,
and made it so it was being said about me.
It was classic.
If by "classic" you mean "derivative".
*snoots*
Well ... classic Satters. Yes.




***@w
--
13 of 12, the CMM Collective
CHOW:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/chow-a-dance-with-dragons/
Give a hoot, read my book:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2012/07/18/arsebook-my-rear-in-status-2011/
Aaron
2013-04-15 19:32:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ilya the Recusant
I'll get to the rest of this tomorrow, as it's late, and I'm sleepy.
I must apologize, Ilya, for the other post I just made to you. I can't find it to even say anything about it there (still using google groups 10 years later lol).

I am sorry. And thanks for the reply. I look forward to your later thoughts after you get some sleep.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
However, having finished the book a few hours ago (a fact I'm still
not happy about, due to it having been a part of my life for 17 years
now), my own thoughts turn less to what's been wrapped up than the
accomplishments of Sanderson and his editor(s). It's an impressive
feat.
Interesting! I wasn't unhappy finishing it because I immediately read it again. But now, yeah, a little sad.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
From a purely professional point of view - especially from an
editorial vantage, the last three books were excellently balanced. I
have nothing but praise for what Sanderson and company have pulled
off.
Agreed. And I don't think Sanderson "lied" to us about Taimandred!

Only RJ ;P
Post by Ilya the Recusant
And I cannot begin to imagine how terrifying and stressful it must
have been to be in Sanderson's position, when forced to sit down and
finish the work of his hero.
Definitely.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Occasional grammatical errors and spelling mistakes aside: I am
impressed, both as a long-time reader and as someone who works in the
publishing field.
I'm very disturbed by such issues and, on the whole, I was pretty fine with it.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Which only heightens my sadness, knowing it's all over. But damn what
a spectacular fucking ending.
A-men!
Post by Ilya the Recusant
And you know, there's something satisfying about seeing an ending that
didn't match what I had, for many years, thought would happen, in my
mind.
This is a very good point. I'm not sure I can even state, any longer, what was in my mind before. But certainly Rand on the battle field blowing shit up was part of it. And while we had that, that wasn't his role as I thought it would be.

Some, I did picture, like the Heroes of the Horn being a final sort of rescue like in Falme.

But there was a lot more of the one-on-one duel stuff with the DO that I didn't actually imagine would happen. I didn't think about how he would be ABLE to do that at the Bore AND that Rand would need to ALLOW it. Very cool.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Tis immensely pleasing, to be that surprised. Really.
After all this time. Indeed. And no matter my whiny thoughts about Taimandred, Demandred's REAL plan was incredible. So much awesomeness.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Ilya
-Aaron
Chucky @ Work
2013-04-16 08:25:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron
Post by Ilya the Recusant
And you know, there's something satisfying about seeing an ending that
didn't match what I had, for many years, thought would happen, in my
mind.
This is a very good point. I'm not sure I can even state, any longer,
what was in my mind before. But certainly Rand on the battle field
blowing shit up was part of it. And while we had that, that wasn't
his role as I thought it would be.
True.
Post by Aaron
Some, I did picture, like the Heroes of the Horn being a final sort of rescue like in Falme.
Yeah, but I liked the way they were portrayed, not the
army-demolishing deus ex machina like the Paths of the Dead in Tolkie,
but they made a big deal out of the fact that there's only a couple of
hundred of them - important, but they couldn't have just blown the
Horn at the start of the war and sat back to let the Heroes deal.
Post by Aaron
But there was a lot more of the one-on-one duel stuff with the
DO that I didn't actually imagine would happen. I didn't think
about how he would be ABLE to do that at the Bore AND that
Rand would need to ALLOW it. Very cool.
Yeah, the Dark One's actual manifestation was something I never really
thought about, I always tended to think he was just too big, and Rand
would only ever face off against his representatives / avatars, and
maybe against the bore itself while he was re-sealing it. Very nicely
done though.
Post by Aaron
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Tis immensely pleasing, to be that surprised. Really.
After all this time. Indeed. And no matter my whiny thoughts
about Taimandred, Demandred's REAL plan was incredible.
So much awesomeness.
Have to pay it.

And now, I am still shrugging off a general anaesthetic so Ima just
going to wander over here and go "whoa" for a while.




***@w (well, not really @w, just using @w machine for a second, oh never
mind. Whoa)
--
13 of 12, the CMM Collective
CHOW:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/chow-a-dance-with-dragons/
Give a hoot, read my book:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2012/07/18/arsebook-my-rear-in-status-2011/
Aaron
2013-04-16 13:16:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Some, I did picture, like the Heroes of the Horn being a final sort of
rescue like in Falme.
Yeah, but I liked the way they were portrayed, not the
army-demolishing deus ex machina like the Paths of the Dead in Tolkie,
but they made a big deal out of the fact that there's only a couple of
hundred of them - important, but they couldn't have just blown the
Horn at the start of the war and sat back to let the Heroes deal.
Ah, very good point. Not like the army of the dead in LOTR, or at least in the second movie. I did read the fucking books, and they were probably better, but I can't remember if that army was also just as epic and smashy. I think it was.

Anyway, yeah it's good they weren't as unstoppable as that one.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
But there was a lot more of the one-on-one duel stuff with the
DO that I didn't actually imagine would happen. I didn't think
about how he would be ABLE to do that at the Bore AND that
Rand would need to ALLOW it. Very cool.
Yeah, the Dark One's actual manifestation was something I never really
thought about, I always tended to think he was just too big, and Rand
would only ever face off against his representatives / avatars, and
maybe against the bore itself while he was re-sealing it. Very nicely
done though.
Yup.
Post by Chucky @ Work
Post by Aaron
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Tis immensely pleasing, to be that surprised. Really.
After all this time. Indeed. And no matter my whiny thoughts
about Taimandred, Demandred's REAL plan was incredible.
So much awesomeness.
Have to pay it.
And now, I am still shrugging off a general anaesthetic so Ima just
going to wander over here and go "whoa" for a while.
mind. Whoa)
Always enjoyable.

-Aaron
Chucky & Janica
2013-04-17 11:50:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Yeah, but I liked the way they were portrayed, not the
army-demolishing deus ex machina like the Paths of the Dead in Tolkie,
but they made a big deal out of the fact that there's only a couple of
hundred of them - important, but they couldn't have just blown the
Horn at the start of the war and sat back to let the Heroes deal.
Ah, very good point. Not like the army of the dead in
LOTR, or at least in the second movie.
That's ... well, that's what I just said. Except I said "Tolkie" for
some reason, and didn't mention the movies. But yeah, it *was* sort of
what I was thinking of, I admit. They were silly in the movie, the way
they swarmed around and ate mûmakil and stuff.
Post by Aaron
I did read the fucking books, and they were probably
better, but I can't remember if that army was also just
as epic and smashy. I think it was.
Anyway, yeah it's good they weren't as unstoppable as
that one.
I think it may have been more of a scales-balancer than a complete
eradicator of enemies, but still. Yeah, the Heroes were done better
than the *movie* version of the Paths of the Dead, and maybe at least
as well as the *book* version.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
And now, I am still shrugging off a general anaesthetic so Ima just
going to wander over here and go "whoa" for a while.
mind. Whoa)
Always enjoyable.
Good times. I now have a poo-bag, ankle-screws, and a hernia-net. I
really *am* going all Tin Man on this shit.



C&J

Except, you know, not actually tin.
Ilya the Recusant
2013-04-16 11:34:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron
Post by Ilya the Recusant
I'll get to the rest of this tomorrow, as it's late, and I'm sleepy.
I must apologize, Ilya, for the other post I just made to you. I can't find it to even say anything about it there (still using google groups 10 years later lol).
Uh, why?
Post by Aaron
I am sorry. And thanks for the reply. I look forward to your later thoughts after you get some sleep.
...Ok.
Post by Aaron
Post by Ilya the Recusant
However, having finished the book a few hours ago (a fact I'm still
not happy about, due to it having been a part of my life for 17 years
now), my own thoughts turn less to what's been wrapped up than the
accomplishments of Sanderson and his editor(s). It's an impressive
feat.
Interesting! I wasn't unhappy finishing it because I immediately read it again. But now, yeah, a little sad.
When something has been a part of your life for so long, it's hard to
watch it end. Like a relationship with your partner.
Post by Aaron
Post by Ilya the Recusant
From a purely professional point of view - especially from an
editorial vantage, the last three books were excellently balanced. I
have nothing but praise for what Sanderson and company have pulled
off.
Agreed. And I don't think Sanderson "lied" to us about Taimandred!
Only RJ ;P
Not sure what prompted that comment, so I'll be moving right along.
Post by Aaron
Post by Ilya the Recusant
And I cannot begin to imagine how terrifying and stressful it must
have been to be in Sanderson's position, when forced to sit down and
finish the work of his hero.
Definitely.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Occasional grammatical errors and spelling mistakes aside: I am
impressed, both as a long-time reader and as someone who works in the
publishing field.
I'm very disturbed by such issues and, on the whole, I was pretty fine with it.
Ditto. Not nearly as appalling as the glaring editorial flaws in Knife
of Dreams. But AMOL wasn't rushed through to the printers nearly as
quickly as KOD.
Post by Aaron
Post by Ilya the Recusant
And you know, there's something satisfying about seeing an ending that
didn't match what I had, for many years, thought would happen, in my
mind.
This is a very good point. I'm not sure I can even state, any longer, what was in my mind before. But certainly Rand on the battle field blowing shit up was part of it. And while we had that, that wasn't his role as I thought it would be.
Curious. I still remember exactly how I imagined the final scene
between Rand and the Dark One. And that it didn't match it is alright.
I'm disappointed by a novel if I can predict the ending.
Post by Aaron
Some, I did picture, like the Heroes of the Horn being a final sort of rescue like in Falme.
It was inevitable (though I hoped it wouldn't be used, as I thought it
was a far more clever ploy to set it up as this Great Important Object
for the Last Battle, only to have it be used in...book 2).
Post by Aaron
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Tis immensely pleasing, to be that surprised. Really.
After all this time. Indeed. And no matter my whiny thoughts about Taimandred, Demandred's REAL plan was incredible. So much awesomeness.
Finally, a Forsaken worth fearing. Only took 8 + books.
Post by Aaron
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Ilya
-Aaron
Ilya the Recusant

-----------------

"Asshole" has a special place in my childhood, the point at which I
first learned that typical Americans were assholes.
- C&J
Aaron
2013-04-16 13:21:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Aaron
Post by Ilya the Recusant
I'll get to the rest of this tomorrow, as it's late, and I'm sleepy.
I must apologize, Ilya, for the other post I just made to you. I can't find it to even say anything about it there (still using google groups 10 years later lol).
Uh, why?
Work computer, can't install anything else on it. FML.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Aaron
I am sorry. And thanks for the reply. I look forward to your later thoughts after you get some sleep.
...Ok.
You said you'd respond to it more after you rested, I believe.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Aaron
Post by Ilya the Recusant
However, having finished the book a few hours ago (a fact I'm still
not happy about, due to it having been a part of my life for 17 years
now), my own thoughts turn less to what's been wrapped up than the
accomplishments of Sanderson and his editor(s). It's an impressive
feat.
Interesting! I wasn't unhappy finishing it because I immediately read it again. But now, yeah, a little sad.
When something has been a part of your life for so long, it's hard to
watch it end. Like a relationship with your partner.
True, true. And sorry for your loss, if that was a firsthand metaphor.

Or, "metafur", as your favorite US president would say.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Aaron
Post by Ilya the Recusant
From a purely professional point of view - especially from an
editorial vantage, the last three books were excellently balanced. I
have nothing but praise for what Sanderson and company have pulled
off.
Agreed. And I don't think Sanderson "lied" to us about Taimandred!
Only RJ ;P
Not sure what prompted that comment, so I'll be moving right along.
Your complaint in the other thread about how Taimandredites assume the authors lied to us.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Aaron
Post by Ilya the Recusant
And I cannot begin to imagine how terrifying and stressful it must
have been to be in Sanderson's position, when forced to sit down and
finish the work of his hero.
Definitely.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Occasional grammatical errors and spelling mistakes aside: I am
impressed, both as a long-time reader and as someone who works in the
publishing field.
I'm very disturbed by such issues and, on the whole, I was pretty fine with it.
Ditto. Not nearly as appalling as the glaring editorial flaws in Knife
of Dreams. But AMOL wasn't rushed through to the printers nearly as
quickly as KOD.
Indeed. And for once I'm glad they took the time.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Aaron
Post by Ilya the Recusant
And you know, there's something satisfying about seeing an ending that
didn't match what I had, for many years, thought would happen, in my
mind.
This is a very good point. I'm not sure I can even state, any longer, what was in my mind before. But certainly Rand on the battle field blowing shit up was part of it. And while we had that, that wasn't his role as I thought it would be.
Curious. I still remember exactly how I imagined the final scene
between Rand and the Dark One. And that it didn't match it is alright.
I'm disappointed by a novel if I can predict the ending.
Well, in general...and Chucky describes it pretty well in his post just a little earlier. But I can't say for sure, I've read so much and waited so long.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Aaron
Some, I did picture, like the Heroes of the Horn being a final sort of rescue like in Falme.
It was inevitable (though I hoped it wouldn't be used, as I thought it
was a far more clever ploy to set it up as this Great Important Object
for the Last Battle, only to have it be used in...book 2).
Well, true. At least they weren't the be-all, end-all army. Merely an augmenting force.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Aaron
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Tis immensely pleasing, to be that surprised. Really.
After all this time. Indeed. And no matter my whiny thoughts about Taimandred, Demandred's REAL plan was incredible. So much awesomeness.
Finally, a Forsaken worth fearing. Only took 8 + books.
Sing it.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Ilya the Recusant
-Aaron
Ilya the Recusant
2013-04-17 12:51:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Aaron
I must apologize, Ilya, for the other post I just made to you. I can't find it to even say anything about it there (still using google groups 10 years later lol).
Uh, why?
Work computer, can't install anything else on it. FML.
I'm still ... not sure what this is about. It's like you're listening
to some other radio station than the one I've got on in the
background.
Post by Aaron
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Aaron
I am sorry. And thanks for the reply. I look forward to your later thoughts after you get some sleep.
...Ok.
You said you'd respond to it more after you rested, I believe.
Life got in the way. It's happened a lot the last few years.
Post by Aaron
Or, "metafur", as your favorite US president would say.
Huh?
Post by Aaron
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Not sure what prompted that comment, so I'll be moving right along.
Your complaint in the other thread about how Taimandredites assume the authors lied to us.
Oh, that. I was just making sure I understood the logic being applied
by Taimandretards.
Post by Aaron
Post by Ilya the Recusant
It was inevitable (though I hoped it wouldn't be used, as I thought it
was a far more clever ploy to set it up as this Great Important Object
for the Last Battle, only to have it be used in...book 2).
Well, true. At least they weren't the be-all, end-all army. Merely an augmenting force.
Lended the whole scene a scence of threat that being impervious and
absolutely ass-kicky just wouldn't do.
Post by Aaron
-Aaron
Ilya the Recusant

-----------------

"Asshole" has a special place in my childhood, the point at which I
first learned that typical Americans were assholes.
- C&J
Chucky & Janica
2013-04-20 15:31:38 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 22:51:51 +1000, Ilya the Recusant
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Aaron
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Aaron
I must apologize, Ilya, for the other post
I just made to you. I can't find it to even
say anything about it there (still using
google groups 10 years later lol).
Uh, why?
Work computer, can't install anything else on it. FML.
I'm still ... not sure what this is about. It's like you're listening
to some other radio station than the one I've got on in the
background.
Aha, I found it again.

I think I should step in once again and see if my analysis of this is
correct, because while it *looks* like Ilya is just channeling the
True Contro and just not following what is right there on the screen,
it's actually more complicated than that.

Seems to me that Ilya is in fact confused by the apology and is still
sort of nonplussed about it, and wasn't sure why it was going on. And
Aaron was explaining that he was having difficulties due to Google
Groups (which is shit), and further explaining why he was using it
(work computer).

So Ilya's ongoing confusion wasn't just about the Google Groups issue,
which was a sideline anyway and all we can really say is "it's shit"
and wait for things to improve - he was unsure what the whole thread -
including the apology and apparent need for all this excuse-making -
was all about.

Which is valid enough. Either the apology was necessary and will stand
on its own, or it was unnecessary and Ilya has vagued past it on his
way to the next shiny thing.

In either case, making baffling-arse posts about it elsewhere in the
newsgroup, all the while being unable to follow shit properly because
you're using Google Groups (which is shit), isn't going to achieve
anything productive.

So.

Here I am again, being Helpy McHelperton. Or Cunty O'Arsecheese, or
whatever my name is this week.





C&J
Ilya the Recusant
2013-04-21 11:01:21 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 20 Apr 2013 18:31:38 +0300, Chucky & Janica
Post by Chucky & Janica
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 22:51:51 +1000, Ilya the Recusant
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Aaron
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Aaron
I must apologize, Ilya, for the other post
I just made to you. I can't find it to even
say anything about it there (still using
google groups 10 years later lol).
Uh, why?
Work computer, can't install anything else on it. FML.
I'm still ... not sure what this is about. It's like you're listening
to some other radio station than the one I've got on in the
background.
Aha, I found it again.
I think I should step in once again and see if my analysis of this is
correct, because while it *looks* like Ilya is just channeling the
True Contro and just not following what is right there on the screen,
it's actually more complicated than that.
I just didn't understand what the fuck he was apologising for.
Post by Chucky & Janica
Seems to me that Ilya is in fact confused by the apology and is still
sort of nonplussed about it, and wasn't sure why it was going on. And
Aaron was explaining that he was having difficulties due to Google
Groups (which is shit), and further explaining why he was using it
(work computer).
He was apologising for using Google Groups? OK.
Post by Chucky & Janica
So Ilya's ongoing confusion wasn't just about the Google Groups issue,
which was a sideline anyway and all we can really say is "it's shit"
and wait for things to improve - he was unsure what the whole thread -
including the apology and apparent need for all this excuse-making -
was all about.
A bit of that too.
Post by Chucky & Janica
Which is valid enough. Either the apology was necessary and will stand
on its own, or it was unnecessary and Ilya has vagued past it on his
way to the next shiny thing.
I...didn't really care. It seemed superfluous.
Post by Chucky & Janica
In either case, making baffling-arse posts about it elsewhere in the
newsgroup, all the while being unable to follow shit properly because
you're using Google Groups (which is shit), isn't going to achieve
anything productive.
So.
Here I am again, being Helpy McHelperton. Or Cunty O'Arsecheese, or
whatever my name is this week.
Winkums McBladdergaggle. Obviously.
Post by Chucky & Janica
C&J
Ilya the Recusant

-----------------

"Asshole" has a special place in my childhood, the point at which I
first learned that typical Americans were assholes.
- C&J
Chucky @ Work
2013-04-22 06:13:11 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 21 Apr 2013 21:01:21 +1000, Ilya the Recusant
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
I think I should step in once again and see if my analysis of this is
correct, because while it *looks* like Ilya is just channeling the
True Contro and just not following what is right there on the screen,
it's actually more complicated than that.
I just didn't understand what the fuck he was apologising for.
He's trying to be nicer to you, and kinda blew it by getting in your
face about honesty viz. the Taimandred thing. Because you guys are
good at getting on each other's moobs.

So, good for him.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
Seems to me that Ilya is in fact confused by the apology and is still
sort of nonplussed about it, and wasn't sure why it was going on. And
Aaron was explaining that he was having difficulties due to Google
Groups (which is shit), and further explaining why he was using it
(work computer).
He was apologising for using Google Groups? OK.
*grasps face firmly in fingernails*

No, he - it - sort of - no, you - the thing - he...

Yes. Yes, he was. So forgive the man and let's move on, for the love
of all that's holy.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
Which is valid enough. Either the apology was necessary and will stand
on its own, or it was unnecessary and Ilya has vagued past it on his
way to the next shiny thing.
I...didn't really care. It seemed superfluous.
An apology from Aaron is never superfluous, and normally only comes
after a long and bitter battle. You should know this, and be more
gracious.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
In either case, making baffling-arse posts about it elsewhere in the
newsgroup, all the while being unable to follow shit properly because
you're using Google Groups (which is shit), isn't going to achieve
anything productive.
So.
Here I am again, being Helpy McHelperton. Or Cunty O'Arsecheese, or
whatever my name is this week.
Winkums McBladdergaggle. Obviously.
I love it.





***@w (only, not really, since I am still on sick leave)
--
13 of 12, the CMM Collective
CHOW:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/chow-a-dance-with-dragons/
Give a hoot, read my book:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2012/07/18/arsebook-my-rear-in-status-2011/
Chucky & Janica
2013-04-17 11:59:39 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 16 Apr 2013 21:34:14 +1000, Ilya the Recusant
Post by Aaron
Post by Aaron
Interesting! I wasn't unhappy finishing it because
I immediately read it again. But now, yeah, a little sad.
When something has been a part of your life for so long, it's hard to
watch it end. Like a relationship with your partner.
I'm just going to go right out on a limb here and award you with the
Most Bizarre Inappropriate And Disturbingly Revealing Comparison Award
for 2013. What the fuck, man.
Post by Aaron
Post by Aaron
Agreed. And I don't think Sanderson "lied" to us about Taimandred!
Only RJ ;P
Not sure what prompted that comment, so I'll be moving right along.
It was Taimandred again, never mind. Move along, nothing to see here.
Post by Aaron
Ditto. Not nearly as appalling as the glaring editorial flaws in Knife
of Dreams. But AMOL wasn't rushed through to the printers nearly as
quickly as KOD.
Which in itself is weird, considering the huge lag between books circa
Knife of Dreams, compared to how crazy-fast the final three books came
out - comparatively.
Post by Aaron
Post by Aaron
This is a very good point. I'm not sure I can even state,
any longer, what was in my mind before. But certainly
Rand on the battle field blowing shit up was part of it.
And while we had that, that wasn't his role as I thought
it would be.
Curious. I still remember exactly how I imagined the final scene
between Rand and the Dark One. And that it didn't match it is alright.
I'm disappointed by a novel if I can predict the ending.
Like many readers (I think), I had this idea for a while that it would
end at the prologue, with Rand as Lews Therin staggering through the
wreckage of his life and Moridin mocking him.

But that became increasingly unlikely as we went along, and dwindled
to pretty much zero-probability well before Sanderson took over, I
think.
Post by Aaron
Post by Aaron
Some, I did picture, like the Heroes of the Horn being a final sort of rescue like in Falme.
It was inevitable (though I hoped it wouldn't be used, as I thought it
was a far more clever ploy to set it up as this Great Important Object
for the Last Battle, only to have it be used in...book 2).
Heh, interesting. I mean, given that the whole series covered two
years (a reasonable-to-short time for an actual *war* to take place,
when you think about it in those terms), the final two years of the
Third Age, in fact ... then why not? Falme was *a* skirmish in the
Final Battle, even though it was *mostly* non-Darkfriends involved. So
yeah, it could have met the criteria.
Post by Aaron
Post by Aaron
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Tis immensely pleasing, to be that surprised. Really.
After all this time. Indeed. And no matter my whiny
thoughts about Taimandred, Demandred's REAL plan
was incredible. So much awesomeness.
Finally, a Forsaken worth fearing. Only took 8 + books.
Yes! I was laughing at all these parts, and saying shit like "he just
cut Galad" to Janica, who had read the book before me. Every time the
Forsaken (and not just Demandred, although he was of course the big
one - all those duels!) did something brutal, it was like that.
Fucking cathartic. What pay-off.




C&J
Ilya Popov
2013-04-17 23:53:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky & Janica
On Tue, 16 Apr 2013 21:34:14 +1000, Ilya the Recusant
Post by Aaron
Post by Aaron
Interesting! I wasn't unhappy finishing it because
I immediately read it again. But now, yeah, a little sad.
When something has been a part of your life for so long, it's hard to
watch it end. Like a relationship with your partner.
I'm just going to go right out on a limb here and award you with the
Most Bizarre Inappropriate And Disturbingly Revealing Comparison Award
for 2013. What the fuck, man.
Weird. That's two people now who think there's a subcontext. There
really isn't. I recalled someone once saying that getting the next
book in the series was like catching up with old friends. Figured I'd
extend the analogy a bit, since it's the last book. So either the
friends won't be coming around anymore, or...the relationship with
them is over.
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Aaron
Post by Aaron
Agreed. And I don't think Sanderson "lied" to us about Taimandred!
Only RJ ;P
Not sure what prompted that comment, so I'll be moving right along.
It was Taimandred again, never mind. Move along, nothing to see here.
That again? Moving right the fuck along.
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Aaron
Ditto. Not nearly as appalling as the glaring editorial flaws in Knife
of Dreams. But AMOL wasn't rushed through to the printers nearly as
quickly as KOD.
Which in itself is weird, considering the huge lag between books circa
Knife of Dreams, compared to how crazy-fast the final three books came
out - comparatively.
Better editors?
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Aaron
Post by Aaron
This is a very good point. I'm not sure I can even state,
any longer, what was in my mind before. But certainly
Rand on the battle field blowing shit up was part of it.
And while we had that, that wasn't his role as I thought
it would be.
Curious. I still remember exactly how I imagined the final scene
between Rand and the Dark One. And that it didn't match it is alright.
I'm disappointed by a novel if I can predict the ending.
Like many readers (I think), I had this idea for a while that it would
end at the prologue, with Rand as Lews Therin staggering through the
wreckage of his life and Moridin mocking him.
But that became increasingly unlikely as we went along, and dwindled
to pretty much zero-probability well before Sanderson took over, I
think.
Around the time that Rand and Lews made peace back in, what, book 7?
8?
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Aaron
Post by Aaron
Some, I did picture, like the Heroes of the Horn being a final sort of rescue like in Falme.
It was inevitable (though I hoped it wouldn't be used, as I thought it
was a far more clever ploy to set it up as this Great Important Object
for the Last Battle, only to have it be used in...book 2).
Heh, interesting. I mean, given that the whole series covered two
years (a reasonable-to-short time for an actual *war* to take place,
when you think about it in those terms), the final two years of the
Third Age, in fact ... then why not? Falme was *a* skirmish in the
Final Battle, even though it was *mostly* non-Darkfriends involved. So
yeah, it could have met the criteria.
So many characters spoke of it as an object of importance for the Last
Battle, rather than a skirmish leading up to the Last Battle. I liked
the use of it as it ever so slightly played with tropes, but I always
thought the L.B. would in fact be one huge, all-out event (which
Sanderson more than provided), rather than a series of events. I
suppose it's also a fun question to consider: when is the last battle
the last battle? Is it a series of events? One huge event? The obvious
answer, I always thought, was in the name. But I kind of like the idea
of Falme being part of the last battle.

Sorry. Wanking there a bit.
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Aaron
Post by Aaron
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Tis immensely pleasing, to be that surprised. Really.
After all this time. Indeed. And no matter my whiny
thoughts about Taimandred, Demandred's REAL plan
was incredible. So much awesomeness.
Finally, a Forsaken worth fearing. Only took 8 + books.
Yes! I was laughing at all these parts, and saying shit like "he just
cut Galad" to Janica, who had read the book before me. Every time the
Forsaken (and not just Demandred, although he was of course the big
one - all those duels!) did something brutal, it was like that.
Fucking cathartic. What pay-off.
How great was that? And then Lan comes charging in and gets such a
fucking great moment to shine. And wonderfully, I did not expect it.
Post by Chucky & Janica
C&J
***@W
Chucky & Janica
2013-04-19 10:22:23 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 16:53:54 -0700 (PDT), Ilya Popov
Post by Ilya Popov
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Aaron
Post by Aaron
Interesting! I wasn't unhappy finishing it because
I immediately read it again. But now, yeah, a little sad.
When something has been a part of your life for so long, it's hard to
watch it end. Like a relationship with your partner.
I'm just going to go right out on a limb here and award you with the
Most Bizarre Inappropriate And Disturbingly Revealing Comparison Award
for 2013. What the fuck, man.
Weird. That's two people now who think there's a subcontext.
Well, you said it is all.
Post by Ilya Popov
There
really isn't. I recalled someone once saying that getting the next
book in the series was like catching up with old friends. Figured I'd
extend the analogy a bit, since it's the last book. So either the
friends won't be coming around anymore, or...the relationship with
them is over.
Well ... I'm not taking the award back, so you might as well use it to
prop your coffee table up with.
Post by Ilya Popov
Post by Chucky & Janica
Heh, interesting. I mean, given that the whole series covered two
years (a reasonable-to-short time for an actual *war* to take place,
when you think about it in those terms), the final two years of the
Third Age, in fact ... then why not? Falme was *a* skirmish in the
Final Battle, even though it was *mostly* non-Darkfriends involved. So
yeah, it could have met the criteria.
So many characters spoke of it as an object of importance for the Last
Battle, rather than a skirmish leading up to the Last Battle.
Yes, but the basic misunderstanding there (on the part of the
characters) was that the actual Last Battle started around the first
battle of Tarwin's Gap (or at least the first one we see, that Rand
takes part in). The Last Battle was already underway, regardless of
all the clueless mortals going all "Now Beginneth the Last Battle,
Forsooth" and this at the end of Book 13.
Post by Ilya Popov
I liked
the use of it as it ever so slightly played with tropes, but I always
thought the L.B. would in fact be one huge, all-out event (which
Sanderson more than provided), rather than a series of events.
True enough, though.
Post by Ilya Popov
I suppose it's also a fun question to consider: when is the last battle
the last battle? Is it a series of events? One huge event? The obvious
answer, I always thought, was in the name. But I kind of like the idea
of Falme being part of the last battle.
Sorry. Wanking there a bit.
By all means. You have the conch.

*looks a little nervously at conch*



C&J
Ilya the Recusant
2013-04-21 11:09:28 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 13:22:23 +0300, Chucky & Janica
Post by Chucky & Janica
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 16:53:54 -0700 (PDT), Ilya Popov
Post by Ilya Popov
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Aaron
Post by Aaron
Interesting! I wasn't unhappy finishing it because
I immediately read it again. But now, yeah, a little sad.
When something has been a part of your life for so long, it's hard to
watch it end. Like a relationship with your partner.
I'm just going to go right out on a limb here and award you with the
Most Bizarre Inappropriate And Disturbingly Revealing Comparison Award
for 2013. What the fuck, man.
Weird. That's two people now who think there's a subcontext.
Well, you said it is all.
Self-evident, that.
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Ilya Popov
There
really isn't. I recalled someone once saying that getting the next
book in the series was like catching up with old friends. Figured I'd
extend the analogy a bit, since it's the last book. So either the
friends won't be coming around anymore, or...the relationship with
them is over.
Well ... I'm not taking the award back, so you might as well use it to
prop your coffee table up with.
My coffee table is fine. Might just keep it lying around for some
other purpose. If anything in our apartment ever breaks...
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Ilya Popov
Post by Chucky & Janica
Heh, interesting. I mean, given that the whole series covered two
years (a reasonable-to-short time for an actual *war* to take place,
when you think about it in those terms), the final two years of the
Third Age, in fact ... then why not? Falme was *a* skirmish in the
Final Battle, even though it was *mostly* non-Darkfriends involved. So
yeah, it could have met the criteria.
So many characters spoke of it as an object of importance for the Last
Battle, rather than a skirmish leading up to the Last Battle.
Yes, but the basic misunderstanding there (on the part of the
characters) was that the actual Last Battle started around the first
battle of Tarwin's Gap (or at least the first one we see, that Rand
takes part in). The Last Battle was already underway, regardless of
all the clueless mortals going all "Now Beginneth the Last Battle,
Forsooth" and this at the end of Book 13.
If that's the case, and Sanderson was thinking the same, then naming
that big fucking chapter 'The Last Battle' is cheeky as fuck.

Or he just wants to placate fans who won't shut the fuck up about
assorted theories and provide an easy answer.
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Ilya Popov
I liked
the use of it as it ever so slightly played with tropes, but I always
thought the L.B. would in fact be one huge, all-out event (which
Sanderson more than provided), rather than a series of events.
True enough, though.
Post by Ilya Popov
I suppose it's also a fun question to consider: when is the last battle
the last battle? Is it a series of events? One huge event? The obvious
answer, I always thought, was in the name. But I kind of like the idea
of Falme being part of the last battle.
Sorry. Wanking there a bit.
By all means. You have the conch.
*looks a little nervously at conch*
Ew. I don't know where it's been. Oh whatever.

*takes conch*

As said above: I really do wonder if the last battle chapter was given
the name we saw in order to simply placate various theory-prone fans
who needed an easy, obvious answer.

And now it makes me wonder: did the term 'Tarmon Gai'don' appear even
so much as once in the book? Because I'm fairly sure we kept hearing
it over and over again in each book.

Meanwhile, I would love to hear peoples' thoughts as to why the DO
even gave a shit about waiting till book *14* to act. Was he building
up his army of Trollocs from pre-book 1 all the way up to book 14?
Because I've always wondered about how Min's propecy abilities worked
with regard to the DO's own semi-godlike powers. Is the DO bigger than
The Creator? Are the two equal in strength? Because clearly, for
example, we saw Min saying is Suian and Gareth would protect each
other, and when they separated, each died, violating the prophecy
vision (or whatever the fuck you want to call it), so if Min's
viewings are not fixed, and events can play out differently, then why
bother even following through with them in the first place? (Other
than because it's an easy way to write more books and milk the story)
If they're not set and absolute, then really, the DO could have just
dropped a fucking stone on Rand's head just after chapter 1 of TEotW.
Problem solved. Right?
Post by Chucky & Janica
C&J
Ilya the Recusant

-----------------

"Asshole" has a special place in my childhood, the point at which I
first learned that typical Americans were assholes.
- C&J
David DeLaney
2013-04-21 16:36:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ilya the Recusant
we saw Min saying is Suian and Gareth would protect each
other, and when they separated, each died, violating the prophecy
vision (or whatever the fuck you want to call it), so if Min's
viewings are not fixed, and events can play out differently, then why
bother even following through with them in the first place?
No, that one I'm fairly sure they did get right - Min told them - well, told
Siuan if I recall right - that the two had to stay together from then on, time
not specified, or else they would both die. Not that they WOULD stay together
and WOULD live through this but they had to stay together; the 'or both of
you are dead meat' was in there too. And we didn't get to see what she actually
saw or hear her interpret it to herself for that one, just what she told
Siuan?
Post by Ilya the Recusant
If they're not set and absolute, then really, the DO could have just
dropped a fucking stone on Rand's head just after chapter 1 of TEotW.
Problem solved. Right?
"I win again, Lews Therin! Oh wait, {compex zombie-animating gesture}...
okay, can you hear me _now_?"

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from ***@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Chucky @ Work
2013-04-22 06:22:37 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 21 Apr 2013 21:09:28 +1000, Ilya the Recusant
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Post by Chucky & Janica
Yes, but the basic misunderstanding there (on the part of the
characters) was that the actual Last Battle started around the first
battle of Tarwin's Gap (or at least the first one we see, that Rand
takes part in). The Last Battle was already underway, regardless of
all the clueless mortals going all "Now Beginneth the Last Battle,
Forsooth" and this at the end of Book 13.
If that's the case, and Sanderson was thinking the same, then naming
that big fucking chapter 'The Last Battle' is cheeky as fuck.
Well, there is that to be said, yes.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Or he just wants to placate fans who won't shut the fuck up about
assorted theories and provide an easy answer.
On the other hand there is also quite a lot of compelling evidence for
this too.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
As said above: I really do wonder if the last battle chapter was given
the name we saw in order to simply placate various theory-prone fans
who needed an easy, obvious answer.
Well, I guess it did come down to that single fight, after all the
regrouping, those final few days. So let's just say that was the Last
Battle.

In which case, the Horn needed to be sounded. It was just an amusing
accident that it was also sounded at Falme. Nothnig at all to do with
the likelihood that Jordan didn't know his series was going to be so
big, so it could have ended after one book, or in Falme after three,
because Rand fought "the Dark One" both times. And the Horn was
sounded there.

Maybe, in a World of If somewhere, that *was* the Last Battle.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
And now it makes me wonder: did the term 'Tarmon Gai'don' appear even
so much as once in the book? Because I'm fairly sure we kept hearing
it over and over again in each book.
Not in the last book, I think. Interesting.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Meanwhile, I would love to hear peoples' thoughts as to why the DO
even gave a shit about waiting till book *14* to act.
Well, I thought it was the seals and their still needing to weaken. He
was able to touch the world but not do much with it. Then he had
Shaidar Haran, as an avatar, but didn't do much there either. Then he
was more or less completely free, but the seals had to be broken
first.

That's why the seals were kind of a big deal.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Was he building
up his army of Trollocs from pre-book 1 all the way up to book 14?
I'm going to go with "yes" to that.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Because I've always wondered about how Min's propecy abilities worked
with regard to the DO's own semi-godlike powers. Is the DO bigger than
The Creator?
Don't think so.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Are the two equal in strength?
Probably.

Although Rand arguably *could* have killed the Dark One this time
around, but opted not to because he saw the need for evil in men.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more it seems to me that the
Creator was *way* more powerful than the Dark One, but in that
nonexistent kind of way that God always likes to splash around.

He put the Dark One where he was, in order to test men. The usual
schtick.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Because clearly, for
example, we saw Min saying is Suian and Gareth would protect each
other, and when they separated, each died, violating the prophecy
vision (or whatever the fuck you want to call it),
Um.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
so if Min's
viewings are not fixed,
They were fixed. They had to be together to protect each other and
would die if separated. Min saw this. And then it happened. She wasn't
wrong and her vision didn't change. Siuan and Gareth put the greater
need ahead of their own survival, and split up, and died for it.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
and events can play out differently, then why
bother even following through with them in the first place? (Other
than because it's an easy way to write more books and milk the story)
Um, yeah. Her visions always came true.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
If they're not set and absolute, then really, the DO could have just
dropped a fucking stone on Rand's head just after chapter 1 of TEotW.
Problem solved. Right?
Not ... really, no. But thinking outside the box, well done that man.





***@w (only, not really, since I am still on sick leave)
--
13 of 12, the CMM Collective
CHOW:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/chow-a-dance-with-dragons/
Give a hoot, read my book:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2012/07/18/arsebook-my-rear-in-status-2011/
Aaron
2013-04-22 11:52:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ilya the Recusant
On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 13:22:23 +0300, Chucky & Janica
Post by Chucky & Janica
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 16:53:54 -0700 (PDT), Ilya Popov
Post by Ilya Popov
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Aaron
Post by Aaron
Interesting! I wasn't unhappy finishing it because
I immediately read it again. But now, yeah, a little sad.
When something has been a part of your life for so long, it's hard to
watch it end. Like a relationship with your partner.
I'm just going to go right out on a limb here and award you with the
Most Bizarre Inappropriate And Disturbingly Revealing Comparison Award
for 2013. What the fuck, man.
Weird. That's two people now who think there's a subcontext.
Well, you said it is all.
Self-evident, that.
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Ilya Popov
There
really isn't. I recalled someone once saying that getting the next
book in the series was like catching up with old friends. Figured I'd
extend the analogy a bit, since it's the last book. So either the
friends won't be coming around anymore, or...the relationship with
them is over.
Well ... I'm not taking the award back, so you might as well use it to
prop your coffee table up with.
My coffee table is fine. Might just keep it lying around for some
other purpose. If anything in our apartment ever breaks...
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Ilya Popov
Post by Chucky & Janica
Heh, interesting. I mean, given that the whole series covered two
years (a reasonable-to-short time for an actual *war* to take place,
when you think about it in those terms), the final two years of the
Third Age, in fact ... then why not? Falme was *a* skirmish in the
Final Battle, even though it was *mostly* non-Darkfriends involved. So
yeah, it could have met the criteria.
So many characters spoke of it as an object of importance for the Last
Battle, rather than a skirmish leading up to the Last Battle.
Yes, but the basic misunderstanding there (on the part of the
characters) was that the actual Last Battle started around the first
battle of Tarwin's Gap (or at least the first one we see, that Rand
takes part in). The Last Battle was already underway, regardless of
all the clueless mortals going all "Now Beginneth the Last Battle,
Forsooth" and this at the end of Book 13.
If that's the case, and Sanderson was thinking the same, then naming
that big fucking chapter 'The Last Battle' is cheeky as fuck.
Or he just wants to placate fans who won't shut the fuck up about
assorted theories and provide an easy answer.
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Ilya Popov
I liked
the use of it as it ever so slightly played with tropes, but I always
thought the L.B. would in fact be one huge, all-out event (which
Sanderson more than provided), rather than a series of events.
True enough, though.
Post by Ilya Popov
I suppose it's also a fun question to consider: when is the last battle
the last battle? Is it a series of events? One huge event? The obvious
answer, I always thought, was in the name. But I kind of like the idea
of Falme being part of the last battle.
Sorry. Wanking there a bit.
By all means. You have the conch.
*looks a little nervously at conch*
Ew. I don't know where it's been. Oh whatever.
*takes conch*
As said above: I really do wonder if the last battle chapter was given
the name we saw in order to simply placate various theory-prone fans
who needed an easy, obvious answer.
And now it makes me wonder: did the term 'Tarmon Gai'don' appear even
so much as once in the book? Because I'm fairly sure we kept hearing
it over and over again in each book.
Meanwhile, I would love to hear peoples' thoughts as to why the DO
even gave a shit about waiting till book *14* to act. Was he building
up his army of Trollocs from pre-book 1 all the way up to book 14?
I think so. The seals were weakening, and then breaking and being broken, so this was giving him more power until he had enough power in the world to initiate this cycle's (of the Wheel) Last Battle. He could somewhat affect things even in book 1, but throughout the books we saw a slow buildup of those abilities. Shadar Haran, for example, being a milestone in the DO's ability to reach out, and so on.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Because I've always wondered about how Min's propecy abilities worked
with regard to the DO's own semi-godlike powers. Is the DO bigger than
The Creator? Are the two equal in strength?
I always thought of it like other series, such as Thomas Covenant, where Creator > DO but DO wishes to be involved more in messing up creation, and the Creator wants to let his creations figure it out and fix things.

I view the Dragon, the Creator's champion, as equal in power to the DO though one has physical form, obviously. If the DO really was as powerful as the Creator I would imagine they would struggle together directly for control of the Pattern, instead of through Randland (sorry Chucky, lazy fingers).

In fact it seems the Covenant parallel is quite apt, as in that series, Lord Foul is trapped inside the Arch of Time, kind of the same way the DO is trapped into the pattern.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Because clearly, for
example, we saw Min saying is Suian and Gareth would protect each
other, and when they separated, each died, violating the prophecy
vision (or whatever the fuck you want to call it),
I don't think you have the right of that. Min told Siuan she had to "stay close" to Bryne or they would both die, or she saw that--I'm not sure to whom she said those approximate words--and she was exactly right. The moment they separated, they were doomed, and they died very soon after. Completely confirmed prophecy, I believe.
Post by Ilya the Recusant
so if Min's
viewings are not fixed, and events can play out differently, then why
bother even following through with them in the first place? (Other
than because it's an easy way to write more books and milk the story)
If they're not set and absolute, then really, the DO could have just
dropped a fucking stone on Rand's head just after chapter 1 of TEotW.
Problem solved. Right?
Right. Now, I'm not a writer, but somehow I feel that wouldn't be as pleasing OR profitable to RJ if he had written it that way.

-Aaron
Chucky @ Work
2013-04-23 07:23:50 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 22 Apr 2013 04:52:04 -0700 (PDT), Aaron <***@gmail.com>
wrote:

Spoiler space again, for a while. My bad for snipping.







.










.















.





.


.









.
Post by Aaron
I view the Dragon, the Creator's champion, as equal in power to
the DO though one has physical form, obviously. If the DO really
was as powerful as the Creator I would imagine they would
struggle together directly for control of the Pattern, instead
of through Randland (sorry Chucky, lazy fingers).
Mph, very well.

And yeah, the fact that Rand came perilously close to (arguably)
killing the Dark One in this Last Battle suggests to me that they're
pretty close in power.

Whether this means Moridin, as the "anti-Dragon" also had that power
... not sure. One and True Powers, maybe - but there wasn't really a
case of him using the Pattern-shifting skill Rand was using to duel
the Dark One. Moridin wasn't part of that fight.
Post by Aaron
In fact it seems the Covenant parallel is quite apt, as in that
series, Lord Foul is trapped inside the Arch of Time, kind of
the same way the DO is trapped into the pattern.
Morgoth.
Post by Aaron
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Because clearly, for
example, we saw Min saying is Suian and Gareth would protect each
other, and when they separated, each died, violating the prophecy
vision (or whatever the fuck you want to call it),
I don't think you have the right of that. Min told Siuan she had
to "stay close" to Bryne or they would both die, or she saw
that--I'm not sure to whom she said those approximate
words--and she was exactly right. The moment they separated,
they were doomed, and they died very soon after. Completely
confirmed prophecy, I believe.
*nod*
Post by Aaron
Post by Ilya the Recusant
so if Min's
viewings are not fixed, and events can play out differently, then why
bother even following through with them in the first place? (Other
than because it's an easy way to write more books and milk the story)
If they're not set and absolute, then really, the DO could have just
dropped a fucking stone on Rand's head just after chapter 1 of TEotW.
Problem solved. Right?
Right. Now, I'm not a writer, but somehow I feel that wouldn't be
as pleasing OR profitable to RJ if he had written it that way.
Well, I think there's a certain potential to the idea of seeing what
would happen if the Dragon was killed (uh, well, that's why I wrote
the Steal), the Dragon would have been woven back into the Pattern
somehow and ... well, there is precedent for interesting stories
written *after* the enemy has achieved ultimate and devastating
victory. Star Wars.

Of course, rebel cells have to remain in order to offer *some* sort of
narrative, you're right there (and I know this is what you were
suggesting - I'm just saying, there are possibilities). A complete
absence would make for a short, or very dull story.



***@w
--
13 of 12, the CMM Collective
CHOW:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/chow-a-dance-with-dragons/
Give a hoot, read my book:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2012/07/18/arsebook-my-rear-in-status-2011/
Aaron
2013-04-23 17:04:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky @ Work
Spoiler space again, for a while. My bad for snipping.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Post by Aaron
I view the Dragon, the Creator's champion, as equal in power to
the DO though one has physical form, obviously. If the DO really
was as powerful as the Creator I would imagine they would
struggle together directly for control of the Pattern, instead
of through Randland (sorry Chucky, lazy fingers).
Mph, very well.
And yeah, the fact that Rand came perilously close to (arguably)
killing the Dark One in this Last Battle suggests to me that they're
pretty close in power.
Whether this means Moridin, as the "anti-Dragon" also had that power
... not sure. One and True Powers, maybe - but there wasn't really a
case of him using the Pattern-shifting skill Rand was using to duel
the Dark One. Moridin wasn't part of that fight.
Post by Aaron
In fact it seems the Covenant parallel is quite apt, as in that
series, Lord Foul is trapped inside the Arch of Time, kind of
the same way the DO is trapped into the pattern.
Morgoth.
Post by Aaron
Post by Ilya the Recusant
Because clearly, for
example, we saw Min saying is Suian and Gareth would protect each
other, and when they separated, each died, violating the prophecy
vision (or whatever the fuck you want to call it),
I don't think you have the right of that. Min told Siuan she had
to "stay close" to Bryne or they would both die, or she saw
that--I'm not sure to whom she said those approximate
words--and she was exactly right. The moment they separated,
they were doomed, and they died very soon after. Completely
confirmed prophecy, I believe.
*nod*
Post by Aaron
Post by Ilya the Recusant
so if Min's
viewings are not fixed, and events can play out differently, then why
bother even following through with them in the first place? (Other
than because it's an easy way to write more books and milk the story)
If they're not set and absolute, then really, the DO could have just
dropped a fucking stone on Rand's head just after chapter 1 of TEotW.
Problem solved. Right?
Right. Now, I'm not a writer, but somehow I feel that wouldn't be
as pleasing OR profitable to RJ if he had written it that way.
Well, I think there's a certain potential to the idea of seeing what
the Steal), the Dragon would have been woven back into the Pattern
somehow and ... well, there is precedent for interesting stories
written *after* the enemy has achieved ultimate and devastating
victory. Star Wars.
Of course, rebel cells have to remain in order to offer *some* sort of
narrative, you're right there (and I know this is what you were
suggesting - I'm just saying, there are possibilities). A complete
absence would make for a short, or very dull story.
TBH I was completely forgetting the Steal. Capital crime, I know.

But, since we're being honest, just how profitable has the Steal been for you? ;D

-Aaron
Chucky @ Work
2013-04-24 06:08:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky @ Work
Spoiler space again, for a while. My bad for snipping.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Well, I think there's a certain potential to the idea of seeing what
the Steal), the Dragon would have been woven back into the Pattern
somehow and ... well, there is precedent for interesting stories
written *after* the enemy has achieved ultimate and devastating
victory. Star Wars.
Of course, rebel cells have to remain in order to offer *some* sort of
narrative, you're right there (and I know this is what you were
suggesting - I'm just saying, there are possibilities). A complete
absence would make for a short, or very dull story.
TBH I was completely forgetting the Steal. Capital crime, I know.
But, since we're being honest, just how profitable has the Steal been for you? ;D
Immensely!

Not in terms of money, of course. Seeing as it's an unsanctioned copy
of a copyrighted text and uses characters and plot from another
person's story, I haven't been dumb enough to try selling it.




***@w
--
13 of 12, the CMM Collective
CHOW:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/chow-a-dance-with-dragons/
Give a hoot, read my book:
http://stchucky.wordpress.com/2012/07/18/arsebook-my-rear-in-status-2011/
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