Aes Sedai Breaks First Oath! A Memory Of Light Spoilers

[TB]

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PP 130-131: Emarin, (Asha'man trainee) Androl (another Asha'man
trainee), and Pevara Sedai have captured Dobster, and Asha'man who has
been Turned to the Shadow. Pevara unblocks the block on Dobster's
ears so that he can hear Emarin and Androl discuss setting up a Grey
Tower to compete with the Black and White Towers. Emarin then asks
Pevara "He cannot hear what we say?", and Pevara says "No", which
would be a lie, contradicting the First Oath against lying.

[David Goldfarb]

Can I ask you please not to crosspost between rec.arts.sf.written
and rasfw.robert-jordan? The whole point of creating rasfw.r-j
was to take Wheel of Time traffic *out* of rasfw.

Followups set to rasfw.r-j.

[TB]

Post by David Goldfarb
Can I ask you please not to crosspost between rec.arts.sf.written
and rasfw.robert-jordan?  The whole point of creating rasfw.r-j
was to take Wheel of Time traffic *out* of rasfw.

However, there doesn't seem to be much Wheel of Time traffic these
days. Are you sure that its necessary to keep such traffic out of
rec.arts.sf.written?

[Chucky @ Work]

On Sun, 21 Apr 2013 20:30:36 -0700 (PDT), TB

Post by TB
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PP 130-131: Emarin, (Asha'man trainee) Androl (another Asha'man
trainee), and Pevara Sedai have captured Dobster, and Asha'man who has
been Turned to the Shadow. Pevara unblocks the block on Dobster's
ears so that he can hear Emarin and Androl discuss setting up a Grey
Tower to compete with the Black and White Towers. Emarin then asks
Pevara "He cannot hear what we say?", and Pevara says "No", which
would be a lie, contradicting the First Oath against lying.

Hmm, I'd have to take another look at that scene, I'm pretty sure
there was some technicality there which would allow her to get away
with it. Maybe she meant "no, he *can* hear what we say," but the
whole thing was worded ambiguously because they wanted him to think
*they thought* he couldn't hear them.




***@w

[Sir F.A. Rien]

Post by Chucky @ Work
Hmm, I'd have to take another look at that scene, I'm pretty sure
there was some technicality there which would allow her to get away
with it. Maybe she meant "no, he *can* hear what we say," but the
whole thing was worded ambiguously because they wanted him to think
*they thought* he couldn't hear them.

Timmette doesn't need any 'technicalities', she just crossposts her
drivel!

[Chucky @ Work]

Post by Sir F.A. Rien

Post by Chucky @ Work
Hmm, I'd have to take another look at that scene, I'm pretty sure
there was some technicality there which would allow her to get away
with it. Maybe she meant "no, he *can* hear what we say," but the
whole thing was worded ambiguously because they wanted him to think
*they thought* he couldn't hear them.

Timmette doesn't need any 'technicalities', she just crossposts her
drivel!

Useful response. Which one was drivel again?




***@w

[Rast]

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by TB
PP 130-131: Emarin, (Asha'man trainee) Androl (another Asha'man
trainee), and Pevara Sedai have captured Dobster, and Asha'man who has
been Turned to the Shadow. Pevara unblocks the block on Dobster's
ears so that he can hear Emarin and Androl discuss setting up a Grey
Tower to compete with the Black and White Towers. Emarin then asks
Pevara "He cannot hear what we say?", and Pevara says "No", which
would be a lie, contradicting the First Oath against lying.

Hmm, I'd have to take another look at that scene, I'm pretty sure
there was some technicality there which would allow her to get away
with it. Maybe she meant "no, he *can* hear what we say," but the
whole thing was worded ambiguously because they wanted him to think
*they thought* he couldn't hear them.

I don't think it counts as a lie, because there is no intent to deceive
Emarin, who Pevara knows knows the truth.

She is deceiving Dobster, but:
(1) She isn't deceiving him about the substance of what she is saying,
because he knows very well that he can hear what they are saying.
She's deceiving him about her intentions.
and (2) it might be OK to lie for the benefit of eavesdroppers, on the
rationale that one is not talking *to* them.

Ultimately, the Oath is enforced by Pevara's perceptions, not by any
objective standard, so if she can genuinely convince herself that the
words are technically not a lie, she can say them.

"One of a thousand weaknesses of those fool oaths."

[Chucky @ Work]

Post by Rast

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by TB
PP 130-131: Emarin, (Asha'man trainee) Androl (another Asha'man
trainee), and Pevara Sedai have captured Dobster, and Asha'man who has
been Turned to the Shadow. Pevara unblocks the block on Dobster's
ears so that he can hear Emarin and Androl discuss setting up a Grey
Tower to compete with the Black and White Towers. Emarin then asks
Pevara "He cannot hear what we say?", and Pevara says "No", which
would be a lie, contradicting the First Oath against lying.

Hmm, I'd have to take another look at that scene, I'm pretty sure
there was some technicality there which would allow her to get away
with it. Maybe she meant "no, he *can* hear what we say," but the
whole thing was worded ambiguously because they wanted him to think
*they thought* he couldn't hear them.

I don't think it counts as a lie, because there is no intent to deceive
Emarin, who Pevara knows knows the truth.

Good point.

Post by Rast
(1) She isn't deceiving him about the substance of what she is saying,
because he knows very well that he can hear what they are saying.
She's deceiving him about her intentions.
and (2) it might be OK to lie for the benefit of eavesdroppers, on the
rationale that one is not talking *to* them.

Also true.

Post by Rast
Ultimately, the Oath is enforced by Pevara's perceptions, not by any
objective standard, so if she can genuinely convince herself that the
words are technically not a lie, she can say them.
"One of a thousand weaknesses of those fool oaths."

Right, it seems like this is another loophole Aes Sedai could use a
lot to lie to people. No wonder nobody trusted or liked them. The Oath
about lying was really pretty pointless in the end. Although it was an
interesting characteristic. And "The Couple Of Oaths" isn't very
punchy.



***@w

[Sir F.A. Rien]

Post by Chucky @ Work
Right, it seems like this is another loophole Aes Sedai could use a
lot to lie to people. No wonder nobody trusted or liked them. The Oath
about lying was really pretty pointless in the end. Although it was an
interesting characteristic. And "The Couple Of Oaths" isn't very
punchy.

Perhaps Timmette could be your punchy, bag ...

[Aaron]

Post by Chucky @ Work
On Sun, 21 Apr 2013 20:30:36 -0700 (PDT), TB

Post by TB
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PP 130-131: Emarin, (Asha'man trainee) Androl (another Asha'man
trainee), and Pevara Sedai have captured Dobster, and Asha'man who has
been Turned to the Shadow. Pevara unblocks the block on Dobster's
ears so that he can hear Emarin and Androl discuss setting up a Grey
Tower to compete with the Black and White Towers. Emarin then asks
Pevara "He cannot hear what we say?", and Pevara says "No", which
would be a lie, contradicting the First Oath against lying.

Hmm, I'd have to take another look at that scene, I'm pretty sure
there was some technicality there which would allow her to get away
with it. Maybe she meant "no, he *can* hear what we say," but the
whole thing was worded ambiguously because they wanted him to think
*they thought* he couldn't hear them.

They had arranged, as you say, to put on a play for him. To say this violates the oath against lying is to say that an Aes Sedai cannot act in any play or any other sort of make-believe. Basically, they arranged that he would ask if Dobbie can hear, and she would say "no". Thus, she's not lying, she's *acting*

-Aaron

[TB]

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
On Sun, 21 Apr 2013 20:30:36 -0700 (PDT), TB

Post by TB
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PP 130-131: Emarin, (Asha'man trainee) Androl (another Asha'man
trainee), and Pevara Sedai have captured Dobster, and Asha'man who has
been Turned to the Shadow.  Pevara unblocks the block on Dobster's
ears so that he can hear Emarin and Androl discuss setting up a Grey
Tower to compete with the Black and White Towers.  Emarin then asks
Pevara "He cannot hear what we say?", and Pevara says "No", which
would be a lie, contradicting the First Oath against lying.

Hmm, I'd have to take another look at that scene, I'm pretty sure
there was some technicality there which would allow her to get away
with it. Maybe she meant "no, he *can* hear what we say," but the
whole thing was worded ambiguously because they wanted him to think
*they thought* he couldn't hear them.

They had arranged, as you say, to put on a play for him. To say this violates the oath against lying is to say that an Aes Sedai cannot act in any play or any other sort of make-believe. Basically, they arranged that he would ask if Dobbie can hear, and she would say "no". Thus, she's not lying, she's *acting*

Have you ever heard of an AS acting in a play on screen?

[Aaron]

Post by TB

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
On Sun, 21 Apr 2013 20:30:36 -0700 (PDT), TB

Post by TB
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PP 130-131: Emarin, (Asha'man trainee) Androl (another Asha'man
trainee), and Pevara Sedai have captured Dobster, and Asha'man who has
been Turned to the Shadow.  Pevara unblocks the block on Dobster's
ears so that he can hear Emarin and Androl discuss setting up a Grey
Tower to compete with the Black and White Towers.  Emarin then asks
Pevara "He cannot hear what we say?", and Pevara says "No", which
would be a lie, contradicting the First Oath against lying.

Hmm, I'd have to take another look at that scene, I'm pretty sure
there was some technicality there which would allow her to get away
with it. Maybe she meant "no, he *can* hear what we say," but the
whole thing was worded ambiguously because they wanted him to think
*they thought* he couldn't hear them.

They had arranged, as you say, to put on a play for him. To say this violates the oath against lying is to say that an Aes Sedai cannot act in any play or any other sort of make-believe. Basically, they arranged that he would ask if Dobbie can hear, and she would say "no". Thus, she's not lying, she's *acting*

Have you ever heard of an AS acting in a play on screen?

A completely irrelevant question to which you know the answer.

The only "plays" in the entire series, IIRC, are from gleemen and the like. That means nothing.

-Aaron

[TB]

Post by Aaron

Post by TB

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
On Sun, 21 Apr 2013 20:30:36 -0700 (PDT), TB

Post by TB
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PP 130-131: Emarin, (Asha'man trainee) Androl (another Asha'man
trainee), and Pevara Sedai have captured Dobster, and Asha'man who has
been Turned to the Shadow.  Pevara unblocks the block on Dobster's
ears so that he can hear Emarin and Androl discuss setting up a Grey
Tower to compete with the Black and White Towers.  Emarin then asks
Pevara "He cannot hear what we say?", and Pevara says "No", which
would be a lie, contradicting the First Oath against lying.

Hmm, I'd have to take another look at that scene, I'm pretty sure
there was some technicality there which would allow her to get away
with it. Maybe she meant "no, he *can* hear what we say," but the
whole thing was worded ambiguously because they wanted him to think
*they thought* he couldn't hear them.

They had arranged, as you say, to put on a play for him. To say this violates the oath against lying is to say that an Aes Sedai cannot act in any play or any other sort of make-believe. Basically, they arranged that he would ask if Dobbie can hear, and she would say "no". Thus, she's not lying, she's *acting*

Have you ever heard of an AS acting in a play on screen?

A completely irrelevant question to which you know the answer.
The only "plays" in the entire series, IIRC, are from gleemen and the like. That means nothing.

This has been such a long series that I thought I might have missed an
AS play admist all the wordage!

I do remember Leane Sedai helping Min play the part of a dim headed
girl in The Shadow Rising!

[Chucky @ Work]

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
Hmm, I'd have to take another look at that scene, I'm pretty sure
there was some technicality there which would allow her to get away
with it. Maybe she meant "no, he *can* hear what we say," but the
whole thing was worded ambiguously because they wanted him to think
*they thought* he couldn't hear them.

They had arranged, as you say, to put on a play for him. To say
this violates the oath against lying is to say that an Aes Sedai
cannot act in any play or any other sort of make-believe.

Now I'm imagining the annual Tar Valon play, and how horribly awkward
it would be to have Aes Sedai acting in it if they couldn't actually
act. They'd have to use novices and Accepted.

Post by Aaron
Basically,
they arranged that he would ask if Dobbie can hear, and she would
say "no". Thus, she's not lying, she's *acting*

Heh, that's also a good point, but definitely a fine line to tread
there, between lying and acting. Moiraine is acting the part of Alys
in the first book when she says "you may call me Mistress Alys", but
she still had to phrase it that way rather than just acting the role
and saying "I am / my name is Mistress Alys".

Seems to me an Aes Sedai could "act" in 'most any situation, and
justify or rationalise a falsehood that way.




***@w

[Aaron]

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
Hmm, I'd have to take another look at that scene, I'm pretty sure
there was some technicality there which would allow her to get away
with it. Maybe she meant "no, he *can* hear what we say," but the
whole thing was worded ambiguously because they wanted him to think
*they thought* he couldn't hear them.

They had arranged, as you say, to put on a play for him. To say
this violates the oath against lying is to say that an Aes Sedai
cannot act in any play or any other sort of make-believe.

Now I'm imagining the annual Tar Valon play, and how horribly awkward
it would be to have Aes Sedai acting in it if they couldn't actually
act. They'd have to use novices and Accepted.

Post by Aaron
Basically,
they arranged that he would ask if Dobbie can hear, and she would
say "no". Thus, she's not lying, she's *acting*

Heh, that's also a good point, but definitely a fine line to tread
there, between lying and acting. Moiraine is acting the part of Alys
in the first book when she says "you may call me Mistress Alys", but
she still had to phrase it that way rather than just acting the role
and saying "I am / my name is Mistress Alys".
Seems to me an Aes Sedai could "act" in 'most any situation, and
justify or rationalise a falsehood that way.

Perhaps Moiraine was doing more to uphold the letter AND the spirit of the Oath?

-Aaron

[Chucky @ Work]

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
Heh, that's also a good point, but definitely a fine line to tread
there, between lying and acting. Moiraine is acting the part of Alys
in the first book when she says "you may call me Mistress Alys", but
she still had to phrase it that way rather than just acting the role
and saying "I am / my name is Mistress Alys".
Seems to me an Aes Sedai could "act" in 'most any situation, and
justify or rationalise a falsehood that way.

Perhaps Moiraine was doing more to uphold the letter AND the
spirit of the Oath?

With the universe at stake? What a douchebag she was.

But yeah, this would tend to explain why nobody trusted Aes Sedai -
and trusted them even *less* because of the Oath about lying.



***@w

[Aaron]

Post by Chucky @ Work

Post by Aaron

Post by Chucky @ Work
Heh, that's also a good point, but definitely a fine line to tread
there, between lying and acting. Moiraine is acting the part of Alys
in the first book when she says "you may call me Mistress Alys", but
she still had to phrase it that way rather than just acting the role
and saying "I am / my name is Mistress Alys".
Seems to me an Aes Sedai could "act" in 'most any situation, and
justify or rationalise a falsehood that way.

Perhaps Moiraine was doing more to uphold the letter AND the
spirit of the Oath?

With the universe at stake? What a douchebag she was.

She got better!

Post by Chucky @ Work
But yeah, this would tend to explain why nobody trusted Aes Sedai -
and trusted them even *less* because of the Oath about lying.

Indeed.

-Aaron