Discussion:
Massive over-thinking on a re-read, part 00010
(too old to reply)
Chucky & Janica
2011-04-22 19:02:12 UTC
Permalink
Here are a few specially-picked points for the specific benefit of the
Memory Man.

- The Gray Man scene in the White Tower. Here is the sequence of
events. Egwene and Nynaeve are heading back to quarters when Egwene
shifts her head unexpectedly and a crossbow bolt hits the wall where
her head would have been. They see someone running off, and Nynaeve
captures them in Air. By the time they run aroudn the gallery to where
he is, he is dead with a dagger in his chest. Sheriam turns up and
takes charge, never asking where the dagger came from or where the
second killer went. Now from this sequence of events, and knowing in
hindsight that Sheriam was Black Ajah, I surmise only that she saw the
attempted killing or knew it was happening, then realised the Gray Man
had failed and had been captured alive, and so she killed him and
covered it all up. I wouldn't see this as any sort of betrayal to the
Dark One: on the contrary, she was killing a potential hostage they
might have been able to squeeze for information or who might have
given away secrets just by his presence and behaviour. I don't think
she in any way attempted to save the wondergirls from being killed
here.

- Later on, and via second-hand information, we hear that a second
Gray Man - a Gray Woman - was found dead in Sheriam's bed, laid out as
if sleeping. I am not entirely sure what this one means, except of
course it puts Sheriam back in the middle of it all and it has sort of
Godfathery connotations. Theories? Maybe this one was sent to kill
Sheriam for some reason, or to do something else, and she killed it.
Maybe once the first Gray Man failed, she killed the other one too,
just in case it gave the game away in a similar fashion. And then she
contrived to have it found in her bed for some reason - moving it
would have been difficult? Maybe it was already in her bedroom and so
moving it around would have required a bit too much lying she could
later have been caught out in. I don't know. Maybe I'm watching too
much Columbo.

- More for the Memory Man, re: Egwene's Ajah. Egwene is mooning over
Galad, and Elayne convinces her that Gawyn is the better bet, and that
he likes her. Elayne says, "You could choose Green Ajah, you know.
Green sisters sometimes marry. Gawyn truly is besotted..." bla bla
bla. Anyway, Egwene doesn't comment. This is just a bit more Green
Ajah stuff, no sign of Blue. There's some more conclusive stuff later,
though.

- In Egwene's final Testing scenario, she is Amyrlin Seat. Beldeine is
her Keeper of the Chronicles, with a green stole. We learn that the
Keeper is always raised from the same Ajah as the Amyrlin herself, and
Egwene reasons that this must mean she was Green Ajah before she was
raised Amyrlin. Now, we know that she wasn't actually any Ajah in
reality, she was raised basically from Accepted ... but still, in this
scenario it was Green Ajah, and she remembers a Great Purge that wiped
out the Black Ajah. I wouldn't be at all surprised if that's what
they're going to call Egwene's cull following Verin's revelation, so
that much is true here. Then they go on to threaten to gentle Rand in
the vision, and Egwene has to leave before she can rescue him ... but
okay. This is the information we get. Green Ajah, prominent. Nothing
about the Blue. "*Her stole is green. That means she was raised from
the Green Ajah. The Keeper always comes from the same Ajah as the
Amyrlin she serves. Which means if I'm the Amyrlin - if? - then I was
Green Ajah too.* That thought shook her. Not that she had been Green
Ajah, but that she had to reason it out." Still not entirely
conclusive, but I'm seeing plenty of Green hints here and nothing
about Blue, so continuity stands - so far.

- After Egwene's Testing, she asks Alanna what it means to be Green
Ajah. Alanna explains about the Battle Ajah, and standing ready.
Egwene muses about what that meant, since she was Green in her vision.
"*Is that what I was? Or what I will be? Light, I wish I knew if it
was real, if it had anything at all to do with here and now.*" So
that's all we get. Still, she asked. About the Green Ajah.


C&J
Aaron
2011-04-25 20:46:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky & Janica
Here are a few specially-picked points for the specific benefit of the
Memory Man.
That's me, in case y'all didn't know.

*preens*
Post by Chucky & Janica
- The Gray Man scene in the White Tower. Here is the sequence of
events. Egwene and Nynaeve are heading back to quarters when Egwene
shifts her head unexpectedly and a crossbow bolt hits the wall where
her head would have been. They see someone running off, and Nynaeve
captures them in Air. By the time they run aroudn the gallery to where
he is, he is dead with a dagger in his chest. Sheriam turns up and
takes charge, never asking where the dagger came from or where the
second killer went. Now from this sequence of events, and knowing in
hindsight that Sheriam was Black Ajah, I surmise only that she saw the
attempted killing or knew it was happening, then realised the Gray Man
had failed and had been captured alive, and so she killed him and
covered it all up. I wouldn't see this as any sort of betrayal to the
Dark One: on the contrary, she was killing a potential hostage they
might have been able to squeeze for information or who might have
given away secrets just by his presence and behaviour. I don't think
she in any way attempted to save the wondergirls from being killed
here.
Still can't believe you couldn't recall all of this. So, not elephant-
like in memory it would seem, is our Chucky.
Post by Chucky & Janica
- Later on, and via second-hand information, we hear that a second
Gray Man - a Gray Woman - was found dead in Sheriam's bed, laid out as
if sleeping. I am not entirely sure what this one means, except of
course it puts Sheriam back in the middle of it all and it has sort of
Godfathery connotations. Theories? Maybe this one was sent to kill
Sheriam for some reason, or to do something else, and she killed it.
Maybe once the first Gray Man failed, she killed the other one too,
just in case it gave the game away in a similar fashion. And then she
contrived to have it found in her bed for some reason - moving it
would have been difficult? Maybe it was already in her bedroom and so
moving it around would have required a bit too much lying she could
later have been caught out in. I don't know. Maybe I'm watching too
much Columbo.
I think the common thoughts on this as mentioned somewhere I must not
mention, are that the second Gray man killed the first, as was its
mission if #1failed. Sheriam killed #2, possibly to cover up, possibly
for fun, possibly as her task. Dunno.
Post by Chucky & Janica
- More for the Memory Man, re: Egwene's Ajah. Egwene is mooning over
Galad, and Elayne convinces her that Gawyn is the better bet, and that
he likes her. Elayne says, "You could choose Green Ajah, you know.
Green sisters sometimes marry. Gawyn truly is besotted..." bla bla
bla. Anyway, Egwene doesn't comment. This is just a bit more Green
Ajah stuff, no sign of Blue. There's some more conclusive stuff later,
though.
Yeah I know all of that. It was just one mention I'm hoping you'll
find.
Post by Chucky & Janica
- In Egwene's final Testing scenario, she is Amyrlin Seat. Beldeine is
her Keeper of the Chronicles, with a green stole. We learn that the
Keeper is always raised from the same Ajah as the Amyrlin herself, and
Egwene reasons that this must mean she was Green Ajah before she was
raised Amyrlin. Now, we know that she wasn't actually any Ajah in
reality, she was raised basically from Accepted ... but still, in this
scenario it was Green Ajah, and she remembers a Great Purge that wiped
out the Black Ajah. I wouldn't be at all surprised if that's what
they're going to call Egwene's cull following Verin's revelation, so
that much is true here. Then they go on to threaten to gentle Rand in
the vision, and Egwene has to leave before she can rescue him ... but
okay. This is the information we get. Green Ajah, prominent. Nothing
about the Blue. "*Her stole is green. That means she was raised from
the Green Ajah. The Keeper always comes from the same Ajah as the
Amyrlin she serves. Which means if I'm the Amyrlin - if? - then I was
Green Ajah too.* That thought shook her. Not that she had been Green
Ajah, but that she had to reason it out." Still not entirely
conclusive, but I'm seeing plenty of Green hints here and nothing
about Blue, so continuity stands - so far.
Yeah yeah this is too soon. I told you when that all came up. At a
minimum, the next book.
Post by Chucky & Janica
- After Egwene's Testing, she asks Alanna what it means to be Green
Ajah. Alanna explains about the Battle Ajah, and standing ready.
Egwene muses about what that meant, since she was Green in her vision.
"*Is that what I was? Or what I will be? Light, I wish I knew if it
was real, if it had anything at all to do with here and now.*" So
that's all we get. Still, she asked. About the Green Ajah.
C&J
-Aaron
Chucky & Janica
2011-04-27 13:40:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky & Janica
- The Gray Man scene in the White Tower. Here is the sequence of
events. Egwene and Nynaeve are heading back to quarters when Egwene
shifts her head unexpectedly and a crossbow bolt hits the wall where
her head would have been. They see someone running off, and Nynaeve
captures them in Air. By the time they run aroudn the gallery to where
he is, he is dead with a dagger in his chest. Sheriam turns up and
takes charge, never asking where the dagger came from or where the
second killer went. Now from this sequence of events, and knowing in
hindsight that Sheriam was Black Ajah, I surmise only that she saw the
attempted killing or knew it was happening, then realised the Gray Man
had failed and had been captured alive, and so she killed him and
covered it all up. I wouldn't see this as any sort of betrayal to the
Dark One: on the contrary, she was killing a potential hostage they
might have been able to squeeze for information or who might have
given away secrets just by his presence and behaviour. I don't think
she in any way attempted to save the wondergirls from being killed
here.
Still can't believe you couldn't recall all of this. So, not elephant-
like in memory it would seem, is our Chucky.
Also nothing in there to suggest that Sheriam was defying orders or in
any way not being a model Darkfriend.
Post by Aaron
I think the common thoughts on this as mentioned somewhere I must not
mention, are that the second Gray man killed the first, as was its
mission if #1failed. Sheriam killed #2, possibly to cover up, possibly
for fun, possibly as her task. Dunno.
Possible. Although Sheriam was the only one on the scene, it happened
that fast - they could *see* the first Gray Man, and Nynaeve bound it.
They would have seen a second, the way they saw Sheriam ... and she
didn't express any curiosity over who had killed the Gray Man, the
general feeling being that she had killed it. Maybe that's too simple,
but there's just as much evidence for the one idea as the other.

Not sure I buy the idea that there was another Gray Man (Gray Woman)
on the scene and Sheriam let it go after killing the first Gray Man
but then killed it later for some reason.

And this still doesn't put any question mark on her loyalty or service
record as a Darkfriend, which was what this scene (memory man) was
supposed to do. If the second Gray Man killed the first, Sheriam is
blameless. If she killed the second, she could still have done it for
the same reasons as the first was killed - it failed its mission and
could have given her away since it had (presumably, under this theory)
seen her witnessing something of the assassination attempt.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky & Janica
- More for the Memory Man, re: Egwene's Ajah. Egwene is mooning over
Galad, and Elayne convinces her that Gawyn is the better bet, and that
he likes her. Elayne says, "You could choose Green Ajah, you know.
Green sisters sometimes marry. Gawyn truly is besotted..." bla bla
bla. Anyway, Egwene doesn't comment. This is just a bit more Green
Ajah stuff, no sign of Blue. There's some more conclusive stuff later,
though.
Yeah I know all of that. It was just one mention I'm hoping you'll
find.
Well I'll keep looking, but it's not looking good.
Post by Aaron
Yeah yeah this is too soon. I told you when that all came up. At a
minimum, the next book.
Well, they're out of the Tower again now, but I assume they're headed
back before they go to the Waste.



C&J
Aaron
2011-04-27 13:49:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky & Janica
- The Gray Man scene in the White Tower. Here is the sequence of
events. Egwene and Nynaeve are heading back to quarters when Egwene
shifts her head unexpectedly and a crossbow bolt hits the wall where
her head would have been. They see someone running off, and Nynaeve
captures them in Air. By the time they run aroudn the gallery to where
he is, he is dead with a dagger in his chest. Sheriam turns up and
takes charge, never asking where the dagger came from or where the
second killer went. Now from this sequence of events, and knowing in
hindsight that Sheriam was Black Ajah, I surmise only that she saw the
attempted killing or knew it was happening, then realised the Gray Man
had failed and had been captured alive, and so she killed him and
covered it all up. I wouldn't see this as any sort of betrayal to the
Dark One: on the contrary, she was killing a potential hostage they
might have been able to squeeze for information or who might have
given away secrets just by his presence and behaviour. I don't think
she in any way attempted to save the wondergirls from being killed
here.
Still can't believe you couldn't recall all of this. So, not elephant-
like in memory it would seem, is our Chucky.
Also nothing in there to suggest that Sheriam was defying orders or in
any way not being a model Darkfriend.
Post by Aaron
I think the common thoughts on this as mentioned somewhere I must not
mention, are that the second Gray man killed the first, as was its
mission if #1failed. Sheriam killed #2, possibly to cover up, possibly
for fun, possibly as her task. Dunno.
Possible. Although Sheriam was the only one on the scene, it happened
that fast - they could *see* the first Gray Man, and Nynaeve bound it.
They would have seen a second, the way they saw Sheriam ... and she
didn't express any curiosity over who had killed the Gray Man, the
general feeling being that she had killed it. Maybe that's too simple,
but there's just as much evidence for the one idea as the other.
Not sure I buy the idea that there was another Gray Man (Gray Woman)
on the scene and Sheriam let it go after killing the first Gray Man
but then killed it later for some reason.
And this still doesn't put any question mark on her loyalty or service
record as a Darkfriend, which was what this scene (memory man) was
supposed to do. If the second Gray Man killed the first, Sheriam is
blameless. If she killed the second, she could still have done it for
the same reasons as the first was killed - it failed its mission and
could have given her away since it had (presumably, under this theory)
seen her witnessing something of the assassination attempt.
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky & Janica
- More for the Memory Man, re: Egwene's Ajah. Egwene is mooning over
Galad, and Elayne convinces her that Gawyn is the better bet, and that
he likes her. Elayne says, "You could choose Green Ajah, you know.
Green sisters sometimes marry. Gawyn truly is besotted..." bla bla
bla. Anyway, Egwene doesn't comment. This is just a bit more Green
Ajah stuff, no sign of Blue. There's some more conclusive stuff later,
though.
Yeah I know all of that. It was just one mention I'm hoping you'll
find.
Well I'll keep looking, but it's not looking good.
Post by Aaron
Yeah yeah this is too soon. I told you when that all came up. At a
minimum, the next book.
Well, they're out of the Tower again now, but I assume they're headed
back before they go to the Waste.
C&J
It wasn't in the Tower. It was, I think, in Salidar.

-Aaron
Chucky & Janica
2011-04-27 14:08:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky & Janica
Well, they're out of the Tower again now, but I assume they're headed
back before they go to the Waste.
It wasn't in the Tower. It was, I think, in Salidar.
Right, see, up until now you were pretty sure it was in the Tower.



C&J
Aaron
2011-04-28 13:29:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky & Janica
Well, they're out of the Tower again now, but I assume they're headed
back before they go to the Waste.
It wasn't in the Tower. It was, I think, in Salidar.
Right, see, up until now you were pretty sure it was in the Tower.
C&J
No, you have become confused. I was speaking of all the GREEN
incidents. The BLUE thought was after the split up, or at least after
she is no longer in the Tower. Remember, part of my memory was that it
had to do with her love for Gawyn? Well, that doesn't really manifest
until at least the Waste, and she doesn't come back to the tower after
that.

This I swear. You misunderstood some portion of my explanation,
probably the length I went to show that yes, I realize they talk of
becoming Greens all the time. Repeatedly.

-Aaron
Chucky & Janica
2011-04-29 06:25:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron
This I swear. You misunderstood some portion of my explanation,
probably the length I went to show that yes, I realize they talk of
becoming Greens all the time. Repeatedly.
See, now I'm just not sure what your point was. I thought that it was
that Sanderson fucked up by making Egwene think about being a Green.
If she thought multiple times about being a Green, and *was* Green in
one possible future-flash, and only mentioned or thought about being
Blue in one obscure part of the story that I am yet to find, then this
is hardly inconsistent.

If anything, it's a slip from Jordan, going back on what he'd so
thoroughly established early on and then going back to his established
line later. And supported by Sanderson.




C&J

Maybe you have no point, beyond just wanting to remember something
correctly? I can respect that.
Aaron
2011-04-28 16:02:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Aaron
Post by Chucky & Janica
Well, they're out of the Tower again now, but I assume they're headed
back before they go to the Waste.
It wasn't in the Tower. It was, I think, in Salidar.
Right, see, up until now you were pretty sure it was in the Tower.
C&J
Shit, man, I just searched back and saw that on 14 January, you said
this:
"I
think Egwene even reflects at some point that she would have chosen
Blue so it's okay, and the Amyrlin is all Ajahs, so it's okay again. "

So what are we even fucking arguing about now? WHEN I thought she
thought that? Well, I thought she thought that OUTSIDE of the tower.
Book 4 or beyond. And I know I stated that, fairly clearly.

-Aaron
Chucky & Janica
2011-04-29 06:29:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron
Shit, man, I just searched back and saw that on 14 January, you said
"I think Egwene even reflects at some point that she would have chosen
Blue so it's okay, and the Amyrlin is all Ajahs, so it's okay again. "
I *think* she did. I haven't said that I think your memory of this
"inconsistency" is wrong. I just haven't found it so far.

And like I just said, I don't think it's a big deviation even if it
does exist. Certainly not on Sanderson's part. Egwene is pretty
solidly established as Green-friendly from the start.
Post by Aaron
So what are we even fucking arguing about now? WHEN I thought she
thought that? Well, I thought she thought that OUTSIDE of the tower.
Book 4 or beyond. And I know I stated that, fairly clearly.
You're insisting that this Blue-friendly scene happened. Presumably to
back up some point or other - your point, not mine, so I do expect you
to keep track of it.

So far, I haven't seen the Blue-friendly scene, only Green-friendly
scenes which back up Sanderson's Green-friendly scenes. So at best,
you can hope for a "Jordan switched tracks briefly" vindication.
Sanderson did fine.




C&J
Aaron
2011-04-29 16:55:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Aaron
Shit, man, I just searched back and saw that on 14 January, you said
"I think Egwene even reflects at some point that she would have chosen
Blue so it's okay, and the Amyrlin is all Ajahs, so it's okay again. "
I *think* she did. I haven't said that I think your memory of this
"inconsistency" is wrong. I just haven't found it so far.
And like I just said, I don't think it's a big deviation even if it
does exist. Certainly not on Sanderson's part. Egwene is pretty
solidly established as Green-friendly from the start.
Post by Aaron
So what are we even fucking arguing about now? WHEN I thought she
thought that? Well, I thought she thought that OUTSIDE of the tower.
Book 4 or beyond. And I know I stated that, fairly clearly.
You're insisting that this Blue-friendly scene happened. Presumably to
back up some point or other - your point, not mine, so I do expect you
to keep track of it.
Fine, then YOU stop trying to keep track of it incorrectly. KTXBI
Post by Chucky & Janica
So far, I haven't seen the Blue-friendly scene, only Green-friendly
scenes which back up Sanderson's Green-friendly scenes. So at best,
you can hope for a "Jordan switched tracks briefly" vindication.
Sanderson did fine.
C&J
My point is that when Egwene had that Blue thought, I thought to
myself "yes, that makes sense given her character and is a much more
mature position than the default 'I want to be a Green' we saw from
several of the girls before. Not just the wondergirls, IIRC." Elayne
must be Green because she already bonded Birgitte before Rand, but
Egwene loves Gawyn and wouldn't want to share with anyone else. That
was the substance of the thought.

Instead of the Tower chatter where they all expressed how great it
would be to be Green, and have 3 strapping warders making them
airtight every night.

It was something like that, I know it. Maybe that last bit I made up.

Also, yes, I'd very much like to be right about something obscure I
remembered. Glad you can appreciate or "respect" that as well.

Now be nice or I'll do a tell-all about the Sheriam Gray man
business ;P

-Aaron
Chucky & Janica
2011-05-01 18:38:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron
Instead of the Tower chatter where they all expressed how great it
would be to be Green, and have 3 strapping warders making them
airtight every night.
*splutter*



*pays*

C&J
Aaron
2011-05-02 12:18:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Aaron
Instead of the Tower chatter where they all expressed how great it
would be to be Green, and have 3 strapping warders making them
airtight every night.
*splutter*
*pays*
C&J
Thought you might like that. Gotta make the Chucky feel better these
days =D

-Aaron
Infinity
2012-09-15 20:42:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Aaron
Instead of the Tower chatter where they all expressed how great it
would be to be Green, and have 3 strapping warders making them
airtight every night.
*splutter*
*pays*
C&J
Argh! I just twigged to what that meant! *also pays*
David DeLaney
2012-09-16 02:18:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Infinity
Post by Chucky & Janica
Post by Aaron
Instead of the Tower chatter where they all expressed how great it
would be to be Green, and have 3 strapping warders making them
airtight every night.
*splutter*
*pays*
Argh! I just twigged to what that meant! *also pays*
I thought the vernacular was *spends*?

Dave, penny for it
--
\/David DeLaney posting from ***@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
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